U15/05 Girls Academy/ECNL WNT Pool

[timmyh]

Enjoying the debate. With respect, above is flawed logic because performance increases are not linear over time. Yes, at the young ages there is a good correlation between time spent training and an increase in performance. But as time goes on, the law of diminishing returns kicks in. Deliberate practice hours predict 26% of the skill variation in games such as chess, 21% for music, and 18% for sports.

Gladwell's 10,000-hour theory sold a lot of books (and a lot of private training sessions), but is complete garbage in reality.

The Great Practice Myth: Debunking the 10,000 Hour Rule

The 10,000 Hour Rule: It's a popular rule of thumb, but it isn't based on solid science. Here are practical, research-backed tips on practice.

www.6seconds.org

Why Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 Hour Rule Doesn't Actually Hold Up

Practice doesn't necessarily make perfect.

money.com

Great post. Very interesting.
If soccer is in the 18% category, then perhaps that possibly supports a notion that further deliberate practice can make the sort of minor differences we are talking about when sorting between the top 1% of players in an age group and determining who is most likely to continue to separate themselves. Or, at least that appears to be US Soccer's belief.

 

[timmyh]

Why is there the assumption that DA has more training than ECNL? It depends on the club/team! Nobody should assume that playing ECNL means less of anything. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but development is solely in the hands of the club and NOT US Soccer, the DA or ECNL for that matter. These are just platforms... nothing more. One thing we DO know is that there is clear and outright bias in terms of picking DA players for YNT. It has been said by US Soccer themselves.

Seems true with every DA/ECNL club I am aware of. Can you share which ECNL clubs train more than 3 days a week and don't drastically scale down for several months during HS season?

 

[MakeAPlay]

It seems to me that players that emerge at the very highest level in college that were never identified prior are the small exception rather than the rule. That means the YNT selection process is generally a reliable predictor. Your own data from UCLA supports this point. I don’t see the ECNL/DA split changing this dynamic despite the perception that YNT is unreasonably biased to DA. I do think YNT is DA biased, but I don’t think it matters because it is not so biased that it ignores the very top players that really differentiate themselves.

Timmy - I don’t necessarily disagree with your logic. But, my daughter trained just as much prior to DA as she does now playing DA. Also, many of her ECNL peers work in private training or on their own enough to compensate for the fewer team training days. I’m not sure they are developing less.

I can think of at least 3 players that were not YNT players that went to UCLA and beat out YNT players and one who was the 2nd pick in the NWSL draft. 2 of those players have been called into the YNT and full WNT since then but they weren't invited prior to their time in college.

Yes the YNT selection is generally reliable but only in the sense that you are going to know that some of the players are going to be great, some are going to be average and some are going to disappear. It's completely up to the player.

Good luck to you and your player.

 

[Kicker4Life]

Doesn’t it also depend on who is doing the picking? As I alluded to earlier there is an entirely new staff that was hired within the last 3 months. I’m sure there is some degree of preference towards DA players but I believe that is inherent in structure and resource allocation.

 

[Soccerfan2]

I can think of at least 3 players that were not YNT players that went to UCLA and beat out YNT players and one who was the 2nd pick in the NWSL draft. 2 of those players have been called into the YNT and full WNT since then but they weren't invited prior to their time in college.

Yes the YNT selection is generally reliable but only in the sense that you are going to know that some of the players are going to be great, some are going to be average and some are going to disappear. It's completely up to the player.

Good luck to you and your player.

So using UCLA as a case study, YNT successfully ID’s about 75% of the top players before college.

25% peak later or were not visible or were passed over for some reason in the youth ages.

I think if we checked the rosters of other top schools we’d see about the same ratio.

If that 25% increases over the next few years, that could be validation that DA bias negatively skewed the YNT system. I’ll still bet against that outcome, but some of you other smart people passionately disagree. Arguing with data is a little more fun for me though.

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard for sure. No argument whatsoever about it being up to the player.

 

[Soccer43]

I can think of at least 3 players that were not YNT players that went to UCLA and beat out YNT players and one who was the 2nd pick in the NWSL draft. 2 of those players have been called into the YNT and full WNT since then but they weren't invited prior to their time in college.

Yes the YNT selection is generally reliable but only in the sense that you are going to know that some of the players are going to be great, some are going to be average and some are going to disappear. It's completely up to the player.

Good luck to you and your player.

speaking the truth MAP - nice to have you back.

 

[Soccerhelper]

Why is there the assumption that DA has more training than ECNL? It depends on the club/team! Nobody should assume that playing ECNL means less of anything. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but development is solely in the hands of the club and NOT US Soccer, the DA or ECNL for that matter. These are just platforms... nothing more. One thing we DO know is that there is clear and outright bias in terms of picking DA players for YNT. It has been said by US Soccer themselves.

Every single club in the DA has committed 100% to developing world-class players or they will get their membership taken away. Look how they developed Sophie Smith. She is the first official DA player developed by one of the DA camps and now drafted in the pros. Go DA!!!

Sophia Smith Becomes First Girls' Academy Alum Drafted Into NWSL

 

[oh canada]

Great post. Very interesting.
If soccer is in the 18% category, then perhaps that possibly supports a notion that further deliberate practice can make the sort of minor differences we are talking about when sorting between the top 1% of players in an age group and determining who is most likely to continue to separate themselves. Or, at least that appears to be US Soccer's belief.

Not quite, because you have to look at the inverse also---Based on the 18%, that means that other stuff (not deliberate practice) is responsible for 82% of skill variation. That could be genetics, taking time off, playing other sports, healthier lifestyles (sleep, food, etc.), and/or an entire list of other variables.

 

[dad4]

So using UCLA as a case study, YNT successfully ID’s about 75% of the top players before college.

25% peak later or were not visible or were passed over for some reason in the youth ages.

I think if we checked the rosters of other top schools we’d see about the same ratio.

If that 25% increases over the next few years, that could be validation that DA bias negatively skewed the YNT system. I’ll still bet against that outcome, but some of you other smart people passionately disagree. Arguing with data is a little more fun for me though.

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard for sure. No argument whatsoever about it being up to the player.

Can't use the 2019 UCLA team to measure the post-DA YNT selection process. Most of those call ups were from before DA began to influence the process.

Current selection is a DA all star team, supplemented with any obvious ECNL unicorns. Not a bad team, but not without bias, either.

 

[Soccerfan2]

Can't use the 2019 UCLA team to measure the post-DA YNT selection process. Most of those call ups were from before DA began to influence the process.

Current selection is a DA all star team, supplemented with any obvious ECNL unicorns. Not a bad team, but not without bias, either.

I agree. And I repeat, “If that 25% increases over the next few years, that could be validation that DA bias negatively skewed the YNT system.”

 

[Dof3]

My DD plays ECNL. Early days for her. This break is my favorite part of ECNL. She trains at least 5 days a week. 2 days with her ECNL team. 1 day with a skills coach on skills. Some days on video review and soccer IQ But what she has done on the other two days during this break is work with a track coach on speed, explosive speed, strength and speed endurance. Different muscles. Different demands on her body. And her track work has helped her be a much better soccer player because she has developed the interval speed stamina she needs to be comparatively better later in games. I think it is hard to say that two more days of team soccer practice, as a matter of logic, necessarily yields better results than one day of private training and two days of work on stamina and explosive speed. All that same muscle work will, for too many, result in severe knee injury and rehab. I don’t know that the incidence of ACL injury is greater in DA than it is in ECNL, but I will be interested in that data over time. I do know that better schools require better grades, and better grades sometimes requires the flexibility to reschedule private training. And I also know that it is a false assumption to think that ECNL kids are all playing crappy high school soccer or rehearsing for drama club while DA kids are training on a soccer field. Mine has been making herself a better athlete, and a smarter, faster soccer player with more stamina. Unclear what it will mean for her long term. Unknowable for a hundred reasons. But she enjoys what she is doing, chooses it for herself, likes her team and her coach, and I can’t say that the DA options in OC offer anything better or even as good.

 

[Messi>CR7]

Great post. Very interesting.
If soccer is in the 18% category, then perhaps that possibly supports a notion that further deliberate practice can make the sort of minor differences we are talking about when sorting between the top 1% of players in an age group and determining who is most likely to continue to separate themselves. Or, at least that appears to be US Soccer's belief.

If your kid has a choice between training 2-3x/week at Borussia Dortmund vs 4x/week at an MLS academy, which one would you choose?

 

[Soccerhelper]

My DD plays ECNL. Early days for her. This break is my favorite part of ECNL. She trains at least 5 days a week. 2 days with her ECNL team. 1 day with a skills coach on skills. Some days on video review and soccer IQ But what she has done on the other two days during this break is work with a track coach on speed, explosive speed, strength and speed endurance. Different muscles. Different demands on her body. And her track work has helped her be a much better soccer player because she has developed the interval speed stamina she needs to be comparatively better later in games. I think it is hard to say that two more days of team soccer practice, as a matter of logic, necessarily yields better results than one day of private training and two days of work on stamina and explosive speed. All that same muscle work will, for too many, result in severe knee injury and rehab. I don’t know that the incidence of ACL injury is greater in DA than it is in ECNL, but I will be interested in that data over time. I do know that better schools require better grades, and better grades sometimes requires the flexibility to reschedule private training. And I also know that it is a false assumption to think that ECNL kids are all playing crappy high school soccer or rehearsing for drama club while DA kids are training on a soccer field. Mine has been making herself a better athlete, and a smarter, faster soccer player with more stamina. Unclear what it will mean for her long term. Unknowable for a hundred reasons. But she enjoys what she is doing, chooses it for herself, likes her team and her coach, and I can’t say that the DA options in OC offer anything better or even as good.

Excellent takes dad of 3. I almost became a dad of 4 btw, but I got two dogs instead and decided on just two kids after my dd was born. She's a handful, let me tell you. It's funny to read all the takes on DA and ECNL. My dd did the DA for 1 year and 6 months for first year and half of the DA Way. Not a good experience to be honest. My dd played the first year and it was so confusing with rumors that kept changing depending on what one club wanted. My dd is now entering her 2nd year of ECNL. The DA say's they train 4 days a week but that's not true for all the players, trust me. It's all the same, just more confusing for all of us today. The real problem is two groups are fighting for market share.

Group 1- DA is a service that says their developing world class players through their 4 days a week, 10 month "world class training program." Once the product is developed from the coaches in the club through the DA world class formula, the club that did all the developing will market that product on their social media platform so they can get more sign ups. They announce tryouts and start signing kids up at 4. These customers are clueless and won't understand all this BS until their goat is 9 and someone informs them of reality and directs them over to us at SoCal Soccer Forum.

Group #2 ECNL is services to help parents and their dd get into college.

Two choices to choose from today for the highest level of soccer in SoCal. Choose wisely

"The mission of the DA program is to have a direct impact on the everyday club environment by providing clubs with the education, resources and support to develop world-class male and female players. This model focuses on the developing the individual player within the club environment setting a standard nationwide that will positively impact thousands of youth players."

No more teams, it's all about the individual. I know a player at Legends in my dd age. Top CM since she was 7 and still is. My dd teams played her teams and we always won. However, everyone knew she was one of if not the top CM in Socal. All the top 04s were free agents when DA was announced. Legends picked up all the top players including AL. The issue I have in all this is how a club can take all the credit for the development when it didn;t matter where the player went, she was real good and still is. I don;t believe in all this world class development mumbo jumbo. The point I'm trying to make is she was already world class and so was AT and the others. Sure, a coach can help but to say the club developed her is false and misleading imho.

 

[Soccerhelper]

@Soccerfan2 I think making these YNT pools and YNT really helps the individual and the DA Club that developed that individual. No one else benefits. This was not happening a few years ago in SoCal. Ask Map, he was here way before any of us. Data won;t lie so let's check on all this in two years. The mass marketing in our area is huge and everyday. I get news feeds from all the top DA clubs everyday.

"look over here; Ya, you."
"We are #1 club in the country."
"pss, hey, don;t look at the club. They play kickball. Come over here. We developed three YNT players and we can develop you too."

This is all about recruiting and stealing goats from other clubs and nothing else. The on;y developing going on is in the back office. Just wait when all the news comes out before May 31st. We shall see about all this development and how true it really is.

Don't get me wrong, its a great way to reach moms and dads with 5 year olds on social media. I came from Yellow Page marketing and this kind of marketing is way above my pay grade.

 

[MakeAPlay]

Excellent takes dad of 3. I almost became a dad of 4 btw, but I got two dogs instead and decided on just two kids after my dd was born. She's a handful, let me tell you. It's funny to read all the takes on DA and ECNL. My dd did the DA for 1 year and 6 months for first year and half of the DA Way. Not a good experience to be honest. My dd played the first year and it was so confusing with rumors that kept changing depending on what one club wanted. My dd is now entering her 2nd year of ECNL. The DA say's they train 4 days a week but that's not true for all the players, trust me. It's all the same, just more confusing for all of us today. The real problem is two groups are fighting for market share.

Group 1- DA is a service that says their developing world class players through their 4 days a week, 10 month "world class training program." Once the product is developed from the coaches in the club through the DA world class formula, the club that did all the developing will market that product on their social media platform so they can get more sign ups. They announce tryouts and start signing kids up at 4. These customers are clueless and won't understand all this BS until their goat is 9 and someone informs them of reality and directs them over to us at SoCal Soccer Forum.

Group #2 ECNL is services to help parents and their dd get into college.

Two choices to choose from today for the highest level of soccer in SoCal. Choose wisely

"The mission of the DA program is to have a direct impact on the everyday club environment by providing clubs with the education, resources and support to develop world-class male and female players. This model focuses on the developing the individual player within the club environment setting a standard nationwide that will positively impact thousands of youth players."

No more teams, it's all about the individual. I know a player at Legends in my dd age. Top CM since she was 7 and still is. My dd teams played her teams and we always won. However, everyone knew she was one of if not the top CM in Socal. All the top 04s were free agents when DA was announced. Legends picked up all the top players including AL. The issue I have in all this is how a club can take all the credit for the development when it didn;t matter where the player went, she was real good and still is. I don;t believe in all this world class development mumbo jumbo. The point I'm trying to make is she was already world class and so was AT and the others. Sure, a coach can help but to say the club developed her is false and misleading imho.

Very true. Ashley Sanchez and Catarina Macario have been the top to '99 birth year players in SoCal (and the country) since they were 12 years old. One went from Legends to Blues and one went from Brazil to Surf. I will say that without the hard work put in by those players, they wouldn't have continued to be at the top and I guarantee that they both credit the coaches that they have had for helping to continue their development. Not one would say a particular league did anything other than to put them in a place where they could compete against other great players and teams.

Good luck to you and your player.

 

[Kicker4Life]

Leagues don’t develop players, Coaches and Players families do!

 

[Dubs]

Seems true with every DA/ECNL club I am aware of. Can you share which ECNL clubs train more than 3 days a week and don't drastically scale down for several months during HS season?

I can only speak to my kid's club. They have 3 practices + 1 technique focused day. They do break for HS soccer, but for those girls that decide not to play HS, training continues 3-4 times per week. There is no scale down.

 

[shales1002]

Seems true with every DA/ECNL club I am aware of. Can you share which ECNL clubs train more than 3 days a week and don't drastically scale down for several months during HS season?

Heat FC. The high school season is in the Fall and runs the same time as the fall southwest conference. There is no break other than a few weeks in December.

 

[Dubs]

Every single club in the DA has committed 100% to developing world-class players or they will get their membership taken away. Look how they developed Sophie Smith. She is the first official DA player developed by one of the DA camps and now drafted in the pros. Go DA!!!

Sophia Smith Becomes First Girls' Academy Alum Drafted Into NWSL

It is not the DA that develops world class players nor is it ECNL. As you have heard from many others on this thread, it is the club coach or other coaches + DD + family that does the development.

 

[Desert Hound]

Heat FC. The high school season is in the Fall and runs the same time as the fall southwest conference. There is no break other than a few weeks in December.

You made the trip to Phx last weekend correct? Your daughter made some great saves during the Sat game. See you guys on Sunday. Rising is the Sat game.

So in NV kids can play HS at the same time they are in club? AZ does not allow HS players to play club during HS season. The HS season just ended last week.