That sounds fair. I’d be happy with either a confirmed infection or an antibody test. As long as it is verified.
There is also a strong argument that it is unfair to vaccinate known recovered patients while almost all of Africa is unvaccinated.
Vaccine
- Thread starter Multi Sport
- Start date
There is also a strong argument that it is unfair to vaccinate known recovered patients while almost all of Africa is unvaccinated.
You two should get a room and have cheers together....lol!!!
There is no “natural vs vaccine” argument. They both work extremely well.
The vast majority of the US 12+ population does not have verified natural immunity. There are only about 40M people who have tested positive.
The main policy question is whether there should be a vaccine mandate for the 240 million people who cannot demonstrate natural immunity. Whether to exempt the other 40 million is a relatively minor policy question.
productive discussions are rare these days. Worth raising a pint to the concept.
You two are Pro-Vax Dads and 99% of my male friends are Pro-Vax too. I am getting squeezed out of the state. I want to stay, I really really do. The warrior ((William Wallace)) in me wants to duke it out with my words but I'm too old for this and we have way too many Robert the Bruce in these parts. Milk toast dads...lol!!! I was hoping I could get some to see my side but their putting their chips in with the jab and compliance. I get it. I will be 55 in November and dont have the mental toughness to deal with folks like you anymore. You win and I will leave 100%. I need some time with my dd before she graduates. I wont tell her the news that I know Grace knows about. It's super weak and low bro but that's how you guys decided to play. This is over my head now and I see the writing on the wall. Bye bye!!!
EvilGoalie 21
GOLD
Fauci's timetable? Shrug. What stuffed shirts like Rand Paul have to say? Double shrug.
If a risk is hypothetical, or even potentially known but not quantifiable, they cannot be compared to one another in any truly objective way. You can say, likely both are small. You can say here is the one i think is important. but you are forced to weigh them against one another based on a non-quantitative framework. Maybe the come out the same for you.
With respect, once you get to "nothing's 100%" in these sort of posts I tend to lose track of what you are trying to say. Of course the vaccine has a lower efficacy for community transmission with delta then earlier lower R0 variants. My hypothetical concern with the youngers has nothing to do with efficacy of the vaccine against community transmission. It has to do with what constitutes a naieve innate immune system and why these respiratory syndroms caused by coronaviruses tend to create such a variable tipping point for some conglomeration of immune mediated cell lysis, cytokine dumping, IL-6 inflammation loop amplifcation etc. If we were to go through subsequent viral waves, with each wave those immune systems are getting less and less naieve. That gets into the weeds, probably not something people want to get into here. But its something some people are thinking about.
Bruddah IZ
DA
Nice try. So why the anti-immune system attitude via a vax or else mandate?
Lol! Is that why you went super nova with the case count? The truth is that you really don't know how many folks have natural immunity.
So much for "There is no “natural vs vaccine” argument. They both work extremely well". Funny watching you go full circle in one post
Bruddah IZ
DA
There were 937,622 births yoy to date.
He's happy with his big win. Bruddah IZ, the hammer is coming......
Can we not then agree as well that masks on 2 year olds (when we are one of the very few countries in the world requiring them this young), particularly those with special needs, are counterproductive?
Well the first argument for the under 12 needing to get vaxxed is because of community spread but you say your concern "with the youngers has nothing to do with efficacy of the vaccine against community transmission". So we have to take it that you are not advocating the under 12 need to be vaxxed in order to lower community spread.
The second argument for the under 12 needing to get vaxxed is because of the risk to them. You seem to imply here that it's because they have naive immune systems not previously exposed to the virus. Your prior argument was also that we don't understand what the long term harm may be to them because of the virus. But we do know the general risk of the virus to them (hospitalization, death, long COVID) is less than that of a 30 year old vaxxed person. Your argument essentially postulates that there might be a long term unknown effect on them, that while not prevalent in a 30 year old vaxxed person (because their systems are not naive) is prevalent in an under 12 because their systems are naive, despite that 12 year olds have a lesser risk of hospitalization, death, long COVID than the 30 year old. O.k.....we don't know what we don't know....but that would be quite a logical bend and that is VERY different than the argument we don't know what we don't know about vaccines because that argument lacks the converse bend you postulated. Is it possible? Sure....but it's based on 2 assumptions: a. the vaxx does defends overwhelmingly (if not 100%) against this unknown harm in vaxxed people (and therefore they aren't at risk), and b. the children are at greater risk of this unknown harm despite being at lesser risk than a vaxxed person against all the other harms. Not very probably, not equivalent.
With respect (not intended as a slur AT ALL), that leads to the conclusion that (more likely than not) you are trying to rationalize your fear (which is fine...it's what people do...fearful so you look for a reason to justify why your emotions are legitimate...your emotions are legitimate without having to justify them). The other indication, BTW, is that you declined to leave a marker (since it is relevant)...are you talking all children (remember the under 6 months may NEVER get the vaccine approved) or 5-12 before you consider this over?
GoldenGate
GOLD
Not doing one's job to your satisfaction is not a crime, nor should it be. The FBI investigators broke no laws by failing to find that Nasser did. The FBI fired the lead investigator in very public fashion, which is the appropriate and only remedy. Or do you think we should throw the entire FBI in prison because they haven't caught the Zodiac killer? And the entire Bush administration for not stopping 9/11 and then failing to catch Bin Laden? Maybe we should throw all government healthcare workers in prison for not doing a good enough job convincing anti-vaxxers to stop getting people killed? Wow, this really is sounding like a big conspiracy. I wonder how those voting machine companies were involved.
How do you propose we "trust but verify" who in a nation of 330 million people have natural immunity? Make all Americans who haven't been vaccinated to undergo a diagnostic test if they haven't been vaccinated? Do you really want the federal government demanding everyone's medical files? Schools? Employers? And what tests should they be forced to rely on? The current more accurate diagnostic tests? Or are the unreliable ones good enough for you? It sounds like you have all the answers.
Why is it that you think it is a contest between vaccine immunity and natural immunity? Why can't you do both, especially since we know from numerous studies that vaccines are safe, and we also know, per the anti-vaxxers here, that we don't have crystal balls and therefore can't predict that any immunity will last beyond tomorrow? Why should anyone be forced to take anti-vaxxers at their word that they "had covid" or "got vaccinated"?
Hurled off or forced off the airplane? Hurled is strong language and makes me think of this picture below. BTW, this is so sad that people like dad and other pro vaxers ((Robert the Bruce types)) do nothing because all their chips are all in with the old system. I got forced off that Hamster wheel and at first I was all bitter and angry. Today, I find peace in my soul and feel blessed to be the one called to this deep calling called, "just say no." I have deep, deep emotional pain from my past and I have super deep, deep held religious and moral rejection to the injection jabs.
what-happened
GOLD
There's plenty of divisive argument going on. Scroll through your twitter feed, turn on the news, it's on display. Every talking head has an opionon, every book selling medical professional has an opinion.
I don't disagree with most of your post. I would counter that acknowledging 40M people is major, not minor. The goverment should use this opporutnity to have a common sense discussion that focuses on inclusion for those who've had covid. . Demonstrating sanity and sound reasoning would go a long way in re-establishing trust - maybe.
GoldenGate
GOLD
A large proportion of the world's population thinks this guy is always right, so...
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Pope urges COVID inoculations, says vaccines are humanity's friends
Pope Francis said on Wednesday he was puzzled why so many people, including some cardinals in Roman Catholic Church hierarchy, have refused to get inoculated against COVID-19.www.reuters.com
If God told the Pope that people should get vaccinated, but you refuse to get vaccinated on the pretense that it is against your religion, does that mean you are bearing false witness and going to hell?
Desert Hound
DA
Actually the question should be...since the vast vast majority of people have little risk of the virus, why mandate them to get a vaccine.
Unless you have serious health issues...or are past 70 with serious health issues, the virus really is not a concern.
The people that have wanted to get vaccinated have. And the percentage in the high risk groups have done so at high rates.
So mandating people with little to no risk to get a vaccine isn't good policy. Even more so when we do not have long term studies of potential side effects.
If your child cannot wear a mask, do not buy the plane ticket. Many of us have cancelled trips over the past 18 months. You‘ll be in good company.
What is so special about your trip that you should be exempt from the same rules as other people?
Err...I can think of a ton of reason outside of vacation. When my kid was that age, I had to travel on a work trip (as a single parent could not leave the kid by himself), family funeral, moving to another place, split custody, caring for an aged grandmother, saying goodbye to a dying relative. Lots of reasons.
We're one of the very few countries to mandate masks on 2 year olds, including those with special needs. What's special about it is it's a 2 year old.
EOTL is late to the game. let me answer these two Qs. Trust is key here. I got Covid ((I got it, trust me)) back in Jan 2020, when it was on our plane. I got so sick. Not as bad as Dom got it, but I got it and I got the message my wife was trying to tell me two years prior about Bill, Dr. Batci and Jeffrey and their little plan. Peace out
I'd recommend you read up on the case because it goes way beyond not doing their job. Both Senator Blumenthal and Leahy (also attorneys) are strongly recommending prosecution of the FBI agents.