Thanks.
A lot centers around whether it takes a roster slot away from another girl. It's an easier question when you're talking rec sports. It's harder when you start cutting kids.
The girl who got cut may also have had ZERO advantage, as you say.
How will this affect womens sports in college?
- Thread starter Lavey29
- Start date
A lot centers around whether it takes a roster slot away from another girl. It's an easier question when you're talking rec sports. It's harder when you start cutting kids.
The girl who got cut may also have had ZERO advantage, as you say.
FutbolHeidiHo
BRONZE
What would you suggest is the best option for my daughter? if you are so worried about kids who might be cut because she wants to play a sport that my daughter should not be allowed to try to make the team?
I appreciate your post. It is honest and expresses your reality. You seem like a good parent that is looking out for the welfare of their child. I personally have no issue with transgender kids playing in youth sports. The key is when you say "could keep an even playing field" in soccer we have age bands to keep players who are larger, faster and stronger in their own lane and to give everyone a fair chance. Your daughter having been born male has biological advantages over mine given the same birth year. There is such a variation in the kids it may not even be an issue but then again it may. We played against a Boise Thorns ECNL team that had a child similar to yours and none of our parents had an issue with it. She played well and wasn't all that different from the rest of the girls in size and speed. My DD, love her to death, is simply not good enough and will never be competing for scholarships or top teams. so we don't particularly care, play for fun but love the competition. You would be welcome on our team. I don't think most parents would have a problem with it unless she started to dominate games.
In writing this post I actually looked up the guidelines from our governing body. I can attach it if anyone wants to see it but it basically is an interview process. I don't think there is actual testing involved until the collegiate level. The youth athletic association wants to hear your story and will approve or deny based on what is said and the supporting medical documentation. The key phrase in the entire document is this:
"upon review of the above documentation, finds that the student’s request is appropriate and is not motivated by an improper purpose and there are no adverse health risks to the athlete, then a supportive recommendation shall be made by the committee to the AIA Executive Board for the athlete’s participation in sex-segregated activities consistent with the student’s gender identity."
That is really the crux of the argument "is not motivated by an improper purpose". Unless there are scholarships or advancement opportunities on the line.. you are right it is petty. However at the top levels the investment by parents and players is great and every advantage accounted for. Being born a male does give physiological advantages their kids don't have. You seem to simply want your child to play sports and that is noble but that does not mean others could not take unfair advantage.
MacDre
PREMIER
Nice windup, but this is pure unadulterated fear mongering.
Oooof. Agree it isn't easy.
I am so worried about the other girl who does get cut in this situation. Trying to make the team isn't really a fair contest.
Your daughter has a larger rib cage, more height, and a different muscle chemistry than the cis-gender girls who are trying out.
That gap will grow as she gets older. And there isn't really a way to make it a fair contest. One girl had testosterone and the other did not.
If your daughter were a weaker athlete, then girls rec sports would be fine. No one loses.
If you lived in a more accepting area, then rec boys sports would be fine, for the same reason. It sounds like she tried it and that was not her experience. Which is sad.
So, no solutions from me. I don't know.
Same as you don't have any suggestions for the girl who got cut. She wanted to play, too. I don't know why sidelining her is supposed to be any better.
I’d be so bummed for my daughter to get cut or lose time to a biological male turned female.
Id also be so bummed for my transgendered child to be excluded from a team because of this issue.
I don’t have a perfect solution but what has led me to keep posting on this thread is the utter lack of empathy.
I know two families personally who have faced this and it’s been incredibly difficult. One is a sports family and the marriage didn’t make it and a spot on a competitive team was nowhere on the list of priorities. Should the local club have asked for documentation and doctors input that this was indeed an issue? Idk maybe? Or take an extra player on the team? Idk?
the kids on the team btw were all fine. Happy for the now girl to be a part of the team. They knew her as a boy and handled it amazingly.
it’s obviously more an issue as the sports get more competitive. Solutions are tough for sure.
Id also be so bummed for my transgendered child to be excluded from a team because of this issue.
I don’t have a perfect solution but what has led me to keep posting on this thread is the utter lack of empathy.
I know two families personally who have faced this and it’s been incredibly difficult. One is a sports family and the marriage didn’t make it and a spot on a competitive team was nowhere on the list of priorities. Should the local club have asked for documentation and doctors input that this was indeed an issue? Idk maybe? Or take an extra player on the team? Idk?
the kids on the team btw were all fine. Happy for the now girl to be a part of the team. They knew her as a boy and handled it amazingly.
it’s obviously more an issue as the sports get more competitive. Solutions are tough for sure.
FutbolHeidiHo
BRONZE
High school sports have many roster spots, it feels like you are worried about something that doesn't exist. No one gets cut to make room for the transgender kid. It is just part of the evolution of society. our kids seem ok with it. We old people seem to struggle more and make excuses for how it can cause harm. As for club soccer, we pay for her club team. In my experience they take all who will pay to be on it ...she's certainly not hurting anyone there.
Soccer of all the sports is the best one for her to be in. Size really is not a factor in greatness. She doesn't have a nasty coach or nasty parents so isn't taking kids out. Yes, she is taller. So what? There are plenty of girls on the filed taller than she is. If she was using physical attributes to hurt other girls I would expect the refs and coaches to stop it. I only posted because I wish others could know none of this is a real issue. No one cares. These kids are being used by the media in a way that simply does not exist in the real world of youth sports.
Desert Hound
DA
There are only a finite amount of spots on a team. Your kid being on a team takes a spot from a girl.
There are only so many spots on HS teams and not all the girls make the cut. If you kid get gets selected then a girl just lost a spot to a boy.
That is the reality.
O.k. Here's my take which is likely to make me unpopular with either side but it means I'm probably on to something. And I say this as someone with a bit of background in this situation being LGBTQ myself, and having a relative who is T.
Firstly, sports is never fair. My son is August birthday and a GK. He was the tallest in his age group, but when they moved around the age groups he has to compete now against kids with 6 months growth on him. He's in the 75% of height for males, so not a short keeper by any means, but still that 6 months makes a huge difference. He also wound up losing a year of development when they changed the years. Similarly, if there are any girls on your teams with a mix of chromosomes (like the xxy) , or if they just happen to be genetically early bloomers and towered over their teammates when they were 10, or even if they are over 6 ft, there's nothing fair about that either.
What's "fair" or "unfair" here is entirely in the eye of the beholder. Any fidgeting of the rules will produce winners and losers, since there are finite places on a team. It's not "fair" if your DD gets cut from their dream team because somebody who looks like a guy walks in from tryouts and just blows away everyone even the strongest girls. It's not "fair" either to send the trans kid who has behaved as a girl since they were 8 and is on hormone blockers to compete against 18 year guys. Start from the position there is no "fairness" here. Also start from the position that I have yet to see a dude decide he wants to compete in women's sports just to gain a scholarship or trophy (though it also wouldn't surprise me to eventually see one or two).
For 10 years or so, before the woke knives came out, we had the NCAA standards. They, IIRC, required an athlete to be on hormones before being allowed to compete with the other sex. They worked for a long time before politics overwhelmed this issue.
Knowing that no solution can ever be perfect, and understanding we have to try to take into account the concerns of all participants, I'd think a siding scale is the most appropriate scale. For youth rec, who cares. I once had to referee an AYSO game with a kid who was MTF, 9 years old or so, playing with the girls. Very sweet kid, somewhat in love with the attention being given, and could not see that child playing with the boys and not getting hurt and/or bullied. For youth club sports, it's tricky because it's at an age before hormones are advised, but I can see a rule where hormones and/or testosterone blockers are required for some length of time, but the rules should be less stringent since it is a team sport and the contribution of any 1 athlete is limited. For individual youth sports, because the performance is so dependent on the performance of an athlete a stricter rule is called for. For college athletics, the rules should be even stricter and require a prolonged period on hormone blockers and estrogen, plus either a transition or an active moment towards transition within the coming months For Olympic level competition, it wouldn't be unreasonable to require the transition to have occurred.
None of this is entirely "fair" to anyone. But it recognizes there are competing concerns on both ends of the spectrum. Whether or not a transition really makes someone a "real boy" or "real girl" is besides the point here...who cares....it's all about definitional nonsense either....and no a transition does not make you magically into a biological female. We need to balance compassion on one end of the spectrum with fairness on the other, knowing that "fairness" is impossible to achieve in sports. We were headed in that direction before politics inserted its dirty nose into this issue.
Desert Hound
DA
"For the first two years after starting hormones, the trans women in their review were able to do 10 percent more pushups and 6 percent more situps than their cisgender female counterparts."
"Their running times declined as well, but two years on, trans women were still 12 percent faster on the 1.5 mile-run than their cisgender peers."
www.healio.com
"Their running times declined as well, but two years on, trans women were still 12 percent faster on the 1.5 mile-run than their cisgender peers."
Transgender women outpace cisgender women in athletic tests after 1 year on hormones
Pretreatment differences in athletic performance for transgender women in the U.S. Air Force vs. cisgender women continue more than 1 year after startingfeminizing therapy, according to findings published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine. “Transgender women retain an advantage in upper...
www.healio.com
Desert Hound
DA
Now in the US and many places people talk about putting men on hormone drugs to reduce their levels of testosterone.
This is the level currently used to allow men to play in many women's sports: 10 nmol/L
By way of comparison most women fall in the range of 0.35 - 2.43 nmol/L
So even after taking drugs to reduce the advantage that men have, transgenders have significantly more vs women. That makes a difference.
Some world sports bodies now say 5 nmol/L to play in women's sports.
Again that is more than double what most women actually have.
Even with the drugs it isn't a fair playing field.
This is the level currently used to allow men to play in many women's sports: 10 nmol/L
By way of comparison most women fall in the range of 0.35 - 2.43 nmol/L
So even after taking drugs to reduce the advantage that men have, transgenders have significantly more vs women. That makes a difference.
Some world sports bodies now say 5 nmol/L to play in women's sports.
Again that is more than double what most women actually have.
Even with the drugs it isn't a fair playing field.
I think you’re asking more from hormone blockers than they can provide. They do not appear to create a level playing field, or even come close.
Even after transition, the XY person still has very significant athletic advantges over the XX person.
It would be nice if it did. We could all feel great about being inclusive. But that isn’t the way biology works.
No, I recognize the limitation. But I also recognize we aren't going to get to perfect fairness here either. There isn't a perfect here. It's a balancing between inclusiveness and fairness concerns. It's not fair either that the kid at 12 years old who is 6 foot gets to play against the other boys who are all barely 5, but we still let them play too. To the extent steps can be taken to mitigate the imbalance they should (as well as make sure that the athlete is serious about their goal).
p.s. it's hilarious I'm more woke on this issue than you, isn't it?
p.p.s. I'm frankly surprised to see you posting on the issue too (though I appreciate the independence of thought). Would have thought you'd be afraid of being cancelled by your own side.
Eagle33
PREMIER
Fairness in any sports is very subjective. I have seen girls playing with boys who are clearly better than boys. I have seen freshmen playing Varsity in HS who is clearly better than varsity players. It's all about ability, physiology, hard work and talent - not gender related.
I wouldn’t be strict on it if I thought other people would move a trans athlete to the boys side when they begin to dominate on the girls side.
Unfortunately, that does not appear to be how people work. Most want to win, and will leave a dominant player on the field long after it’s clear they are ruining the game for the other players.
Oh I'd be in favor of the reverse too. Testosterone is clearly a performance enhancing drug. But then I think the higher level teams should be screening for performance drugs too at the higher teen levels.
p.s. it's even funnier for this structure you are going with the "people aren't angels" argument, when I've put that to you about the lockdowns forever.
LadiesMan217
GOLD
Now that college soccer season is starting up, it’s probably a good time to evaluate whether college sports has been “eviscerated” yet. Is anyone seeing transgender athletes “eviscerating” the college soccer landscape? I mean, these transgender rules have been in place for over a decade, so presumably we’d know by now right? Or is Abigail Shrier just trying to scare the trumpanzee buffoonery into losing their collective snowflakey minds over a non-issue?
You are really looking hard for any type interaction aren't you. Do you have anyone else besides this board you can confide in? I worry for you. You are reaching and you look very desperate!!
A troll has to troll.....otherwise it’s just a lonely pathetic existence trying to spark reactions out of people on a youth soccer forum.