Ps don’t have these at my finger tips but there are a bunch of articles and studies that show both decrease prowess due to a loss in muscle mass since testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. The question is how much.
How will this affect womens sports in college?
- Thread starter Lavey29
- Start date
Ps don’t have these at my finger tips but there are a bunch of articles and studies that show both decrease prowess due to a loss in muscle mass since testosterone is a performance enhancing drug. The question is how much.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
I am in agreement with you up until "if that means someone else doesn’t have a place". Are we seeing transgendered athletes being denied the opportunity to play in boys/mens sports?
The complication here is the baseline. Caitlyn Jenner could almost certainly safely compete with the men’s sports. If my elder brother (a borderline college athlete) has transitioned in his prime he almost certainly couldn’t compete due to the loss of muscle mass. If dad 4 (from the description) or the mtf child I described were to transition in their prime doubt it’s safe. The messy part here is some ts are more passable than others...some look like biological women (my coz in her youth couldn’t be distinguished) and others don’t. It’s one aspect the t community doesn’t like to discuss.
The military studies quantify how much.
A significant advantage remains after 2 years. If it were a pill, it would be banned.
Yeah but there’s also a substantial reduction relative to the men, which is the heart of the problem that there’s this third category of people that don’t fit anywhere. I suppose if we were really wanting to be “fair” one thing you could do is test everyone for testosterone levels. Even this though is imperfect: a. Some biological women would be caught in this with higher testosterone and be required to play in the middle tier, b. Feminists would hate that it would be a blatant admission of the physical/athletic inferiority of women to be relegated for the most part to the lowest tier, c. Some significant advantages (such as rib cage size and bone structure) would still be present in the ts so it’s not perfect and d. When it comes to d1 or higher athletics the women we are dealing with aren’t the norm (or more pejoratively “freaks”) relative to other women so it’s a significant burden to take on to protect this already privilege group. It would however have some benefits that ftm wouldn’t be required to shift until testosterone levels reach certain quantifiable levels. Still a whole lot of trouble for a handful of people (ts, female d1 athletes and higher) who are not the norm and special in and of themselves.
You are asking for medicine which does not exist. There is no treatment which lowers male athletic performance to a point comparable to female athletic performance. Even if one did exist, I have serious doubts about using sports as a lever to push people into medical treatment.
If there were a pill that raised an average woman athlete’s performance to the level of an average mtf athlete’s performance, would it be legal for use in competition? Such a pill would be banned as a performance enhancing drug.
Such a clueless sense of entitlement that you claim you have a “right” to force a sports governing body to exclude people from eligibility. Transgender people have every right to participate in a sport in which the governing body has said they are eligible. Your little princess also has that same “right” to participate. What you want - to force sports governing bodies to exclude athletes who scare you from participating in a sport that aligns with their gender identity - is not a right at all.
The idea that transgender people are trampling over the rights of those who aren’t is ludicrous and backwards. Rational people realize how unimportant that kiddie soccer game with the transgender player on the other team was. How unimportant the HS race of slow people in CT was. Most sports governing bodies realize how unimportant these things are compared to the important goal of eliminating the gender dysphoria that people like you exacerbate in transgender individuals with constant whining about how girls sports is being “eviscerated” by policies that have been around for a decade or more in many instances, and with no measurable negative impact on girls or womens sports. In the end, the “fairness” you demand just isn’t important because kiddie sports aren’t important compared to the societal benefit of allowing transgender athletic participation. It’s amazing how the transphobic crowd says that youth sports is all about building character, self-esteem and fitness, not wins and losses, right up until a transgender athlete participates. Then all those things are suddenly not important at all compared to winning a youth soccer game or race, so f**k those transgender kids.
If you want fairness, start treating transgender people with dignity and respect, instead of becoming hysterical when some bigot dog whistles that girls and women’s sports is being eviscerated by an executive order that does nothing to require or regulate transgender participation in sports.
met61
GOLD
I really (not really) feel bad that you produce such a high word count of garbage that virtually no one will read.
No I’m not. I’m saying the condition reduces their ability to compete against men, but doesn’t reduce it sufficiently to the level of the average (or even above average) woman so there are no good choices for these people (other than “too bad, so sad” you made your choice, or the creation of a middle tier into which beta males could opt in and some high performing females would be forced in). So what other than “too bad so sad” is to be done. I also note “too bad so sad” has the opposite effect that your dds would also have to compete against ftm who are taking testosterone, a performance enhancing drug.
Yes He does. Otherwise dad4 and I wouldn’t exist. J/k. But seriously: downs?...yeah I know....it’s complicated.
With respect to the ftm problem the impression I get from some (not saying you) is that these people are freaks and have made their own choices so if they can’t compete too bad so sad. The same people who object to their dds playing a caitlyn Jenner type would probably object to their dds playing with a mtf with full beard, testosterone supplements and an artificial unit. Sorry...that’s my line...”just go away” isn’t an acceptable outcome for me particularly when we are dealing with high performing athletes who are already privileged.
correction ftm
met61
GOLD
No judgement here, we're all sinners...I love and pray for you.
Again, no He doesn't. Actually, it's not very complicated, it's designed to be a struggle, which includes free will...not a utopia, that will come in the afterlife through faith and belief.
Ditto and as a person of faith myself, I appreciate this perspective.
I've always myself regarded it more as a series of challenges and test through which we improve ourselves, the most basic test of which is fear, but another being compassion, and yet another being self-awareness. I agree utopia is elusive (which has always been a failing of both the extreme right and left). Where the challenge is, and has always been, is to where that free will can/should lead us.
gotothebushes
GOLD
Great watch for parents and players:
At least we agree about what is possible with medicine. Trans athletes, in either direction, end up in the middle. Athletically, they are neither men nor women.
A middle tier would be rejected by all sides. Who would actually want to be in it? The exception would be if you are talking about creating more non-varsity sports opportunities, which is a good idea in its own right.
Better to just refer to the top group as “open” or “unrestricted”. Stop calling it men’s sports. Have a women’s division and an everyone division. Mtf athletes and ftm on testosterone would be in the everyone group, as would I.
Agree until the last sentence. 1. There are some biological women who are due to chromosomal or hormonal treatment would not be in the norm....test everyone before they apply to the bottom tier?, 2. it's an "unfair" treatment of the ftm who if the test is biology....well they are biological females, leading to your rule being in place just because "ts" are "ts"....it's declaring one unique group a loser in this, for the sake of preserving the win for another unique and privileged group (high performing d1 athletes and higher) just because you feel like privileging that group (there's no logical rhyme nor reason for forcing the ftms up if your rule is biology and you refuse to test the biological women). I also note 3. this undermines the entire tenants of 20th century feminism by acknowledging females are somehow lesser.
p.s. if you buy into this notion as well it should put to rest the entire notion of pay parity for women's sports even on the national team level....setting aside the market and they both represent the colors equally, they should never be paid the same because women's sports are lesser to the everyone competes, and therefore they should be treated as such (both in pay and resources). If a woman can play up in the everyone's division, they can access there the equal pay and resources.
On average, in terms of speed or upper body strength, women are lesser. Just as, in terms of heart health, men are lesser. Take a quick look at track and field records or actuarial tables if you doubt either comparison.
You are defending a counterfactual equality claim in an irrelevant arena. Women, on average, are not the athletic equals of men. Just the same as men and women are not equal in height or longevity. Of these, only longevity means much.
Why tie yourself to a claim that does not matter and is so easily disproven?