CSL Strong???

[Grace T.]

I'm not sure about that. Sure college admissions adds to it, but clubs aren't creating leagues and all sorts of acronyms because of college. Sure that might end up being a byproduct of what they have created, but @SoccerFan4Life does kind of have it right when he says parents are looking for the special name in a special league.

Don't forget why these clubs are really invested in it, its not for development anymore, ALMOST all are in it for the money, and what brings the money- parents. If it was for development there would be consolidation and kids would be placed in the correct level to develop, not just be placed on a team because you have to fill the roster. And what are MOST parents looking for, a team that has an acronym tied to it, not because that is a team that can help them develop but because they want to be on the best. Then of course, colleges will come watch those teams, but parents are making those decisions way before college recruitment becomes involved.

O.k. I'll buy that for the earlier younger players but that's not what's driving the set up of the structure. If college didn't play a role in it, what we'd get is still the emphasis on trophies but not the access to showcases, coaches that can give looks, higher level tournaments, and the club's connections. The colleges dictated what's set up....what happens with the youngers (oooh my kid plays flight 1) is just a by product of the system because that's what needs to happen at the younger levels to have the system in place for college recruitment at the olders. The parents are just attracted to the bobble then. The clubs are in it because there's a market for it....if college soccer went away youth soccer would go the way of AYSO....even more kids drop out at age 12 not only because they realize they aren't good at it, but because other activities needed to get into college now begin to cram things out and the kids begin to develop a social life of their own.

Did your goalie cut off the angle as much as possible?

The running game is most prevalent at U9 and U10. Kids at that age are just learning how to complete a pass, let alone how to cut off one. Goalkeepers are learning the basics of angle play there. Mathematically in school they've just begun to be taught what an angel is and structurally their spacial reasoning isn't there to know how to properly cut off the angle. They don't really begin to get a handle on angels and positioning until U12 so expecting a U9 and U10 GK to "cut off the angle as much as possible" is an impossibility...at that age it's generally just get as big as possible and do you best to try and catch it (you probably won't)

If ECNL/MLS NEXT allowed outside strong teams to play into their leagues like CRL, it would be a much better league and an open league but they only allow their handpick clubs to be part of it in order to try an force more players to leave their local teams and good coaches to join an ECNL team.

Those teams are supposed to be reserved for future professionals and some cannon fodder for the future professionals. It's exactly a by product of the very system you are advocating for. Those are the superior teams made up of the superior players. So don't you then want the best players to leave? Why should your player who is college bound compete against kids that want to make it to the pros and who have a different dedication to the game? Under your system you laid out with the 5 tiers, ECNL shouldn't even exist....only flight 1 for the MLS teams and certain select teams.

 

[Grace T.]

Parents are sold by what level they are on and clubs are trying to SELL their product. The sad but true news is that clubs are more about the money now days then the player. I am sure there are exceptions but I mean in general. Look at these numbers from Liverpool in Irvine.

In 2014 their Technical Director made almost 150,000 and the club brought in 1.8 million
in 2020 they brought in 5.3 million. Think about that, multi million dollar

Its about marketing, and what parents are going to buy, so unfair to the players and soccer in America.

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Yeah but the clubs exist because a market exists for them. Why does that market exist? Why doesn't everyone then who is not on the pro track just do AYSO and you just tier up AYSO?

 

[Eagle33]

Yeah but the clubs exist because a market exists for them. Why does that market exist? Why doesn't everyone then who is not on the pro track just do AYSO and you just tier up AYSO?

It is coming. Look who is running National AYSO and who coaches are at their United program

 

[soccersc]

Yeah but the clubs exist because a market exists for them. Why does that market exist? Why doesn't everyone then who is not on the pro track just do AYSO and you just tier up AYSO?

Because parents have a HUGE ego problem and they want their kids to be on the BEST HIGHEST level so they can tell their friends that Johnny plays on the best team in the area. The money comes from the younger ages, look at the amount of olders each club has, the numbers dwindle as the players get older. The money maker is on the youth side, that is why there is such a push for the youngers, not as much money in the older age groups. Most of the average players have dropped out by then, but the marketing to be with the best coaches on the best team has faded away, parents become educated and start to figure out the scheme or their kid is just over it by then.

 

[Grace T.]

Because parents have a HUGE ego problem and they want their kids to be on the BEST HIGHEST level so they can tell their friends that Johnny plays on the best team in the area. The money comes from the younger ages, look at the amount of olders each club has, the numbers dwindle as the players get older. The money maker is on the youth side, that is why there is such a push for the youngers, not as much money in the older age groups. Most of the average players have dropped out by then, but the marketing to be with the best coaches on the best team has faded away by then, parents become educated and start to figure out the scheme.

I concur with this. Don't have any issue with it. My only note it's a side effect of the college recruitment system. We get that impact on the youngers because of what's in place for the olders. The structure exists to support the higher placed teams in the clubs that can get the looks for college recruiters. Without the college pressure, most of youth soccer fades away since as you note, as with AYSO, most kids stop playing age 12 and parents lose interest in the bobbles...it becomes little league. It's also why we get the B and C teams....somebody has to pay for the first teams, which is what the system exists to feed.

 

[Grace T.]

It is coming. Look who is running National AYSO and who coaches are at their United program

Agree but the biggest question for United will be answering the college question. Their teams tend to fizzle at the silver elite and gold levels....the really good players that want to play college move on to higher level teams that can give them looks at everyone else looks at it like a high placed rec experience.

Speaking of little league...it's an interesting dynamic....lot's of parents get the "your kid only plays for AYSO" but then their records of some of these teams push back on the approach....so clearly these parents aren't just chasing the fancy bobble....they want the wins. In AYSO United it does contribute to a very little league type environment where the players, parents and coaches really want to win. I spoke to a friend that works there about it...how there was a disconnect between there message of wanting to develop players. He asked me for some proof. I showed him the website of our local AYSO United bragging about how they were the winningest team in the area and bragging about all the trophies they had won prior year. I don't know if he spoke to them but the ad was gone the following week.

Still, the national level is doing great things with this program and I'm hoping they do work out the kinks in their system.

 

[Woodwork]

but yes where they finish is entirely part of the team’s identity. After asking b or g and year the next piece of information parents shopping for teams ask is “what level?”

You have a weird way of arguing against something that wasn't said. I said "not the whole team's identity." Not that it wasn't part of it.

Now, I know you aren't arguing that we should just put everyone in Flight 1 just so they feel better about themselves. So, I'll just leave it at that.

 

[soccersc]

I concur with this. Don't have any issue with it. My only note it's a side effect of the college recruitment system. We get that impact on the youngers because of what's in place for the olders. The structure exists to support the higher placed teams in the clubs that can get the looks for college recruiters. Without the college pressure, most of youth soccer fades away since as you note, as with AYSO, most kids stop playing age 12 and parents lose interest in the bobbles...it becomes little league. It's also why we get the B and C teams....somebody has to pay for the first teams, which is what the system exists to feed.

I agree that there is a little that is connected. I am just saying don't ignore the fact that there are a LOT of parents who are more concerned with what level their kid is on without any thought about college. The sad part about the whole thing is, parents pick the level before they pick the coach, and they don't think about if it is the right level for their kid to develop.

Back to the Irvine Liverpool example. A club making over 5 MILLION a year. Look at their website, front and center, BEST LEAGUES, BEST PLAYERS, BEST COACHES, according to them, they have the best of everything. Then, if you were a parent and interested in college soccer for your kid, and you were looking at this club, you'd probably say they are in the best league so of course my kid will get exposure. But that is were it all goes downhill, You'd think that parent would then question... "Well how many of the players that come out of this club actually go on to play in college?", especially if that is what they are there for...well, nowhere on the website would you find a list of players that have moved on professionally or in college, kinda makes you wonder what parents are actually choosing?????

And that is from arguably the most profitable, largest club, in Orange County

 

[Grace T.]

You have a weird way of arguing against something that wasn't said. I said "not the whole team's identity." Not that it wasn't part of it.

Now, I know you aren't arguing that we should just put everyone in Flight 1 just so they feel better about themselves. So, I'll just leave it at that.

I think, though, we can both agree that it is a very big part of the identity, probably the 3rd biggest piece after B or G and the age group?

 

[Woodwork]

This is how you lose kids in a hurry. You are unfairly holding them back for circumstances that are mostly out of their control.

If you are trying to teach 10 year olds build-up play, they are going to leak goals like crazy. It happens as a natural course. That team should not be continuously playing league games against lower-tier teams, period. They should be playing against teams that will punish the sloppy pass to the middle so that they learn to tighten things up.

The fundamental argument here is that parents believe that the coach does not know the true ability of a team and that an arbitrary rule somehow shakes out that true ability. That rule does absolutely nothing in a world where there are limited games and a normal amount of player movement. "This team should not play at this higher level" is the sound of gatekeeping and I don't believe it in 90% of cases.

Sorry, but I'm not interested in wasting my time driving out of town and watching my DD's competitive team blowout another team 10-0 so that team can "develop." I am paying for her to be challenged, too. Tighten up in a lower level until the team is ready to compete, or use scrimmages or tournaments to test against higher level teams.

 

[Grace T.]

Sorry, but I'm not interested in wasting my time driving out of town and watching my DD's competitive team blowout another team 10-0 so that team can "develop." I am paying for her to be challenged, too. Tighten up in a lower level until the team is ready to compete, or use scrimmages or tournaments to test against higher level teams.

a. If there were more teams in the middle tier, at least in SoCal you wouldn't be driving out of town.
b. 10-0 doesn't really develop anyone. 5-0, 6-0 though can be a valuable learning experience.
c. There are teams at the higher level that view your team the same way
d. The ultimate conclusion of your reasoning then is there should be more flights, not less. In Spain, for example, youth soccer has 10 flights. I think England is the same....maybe 7? Flight 1 should be reserved in SoCal for the 5-10 boys teams, and 3-7 girls teams with potential pro ambitions. fewer clubs, 1 organization to regulate it all and reign in any rebels that try to break the system. You move up and down not by pro/rel but by being recruited onto the higher placed bands.

 

[Woodwork]

I think, though, we can both agree that it is a very big part of the identity, probably the 3rd biggest piece after B or G and the age group?

I think it is a big part of some parent's identity. I have never seen kids bug each other about it. Kids, especially at younger ages, aren't over thinking this. A lot of kids and parents are proud of when their kids win a few games here and there, or when they earn their way from Bronze to Silver, or just compete in Silver.

Lots of teams stay together in Silver for years. They just want to have some good games and good moments, maybe play in high school. All this talk about college and pro ball etc is mostly an echo chamber here.

 

[Woodwork]

a. If there were more teams in the middle tier, at least in SoCal you wouldn't be driving out of town.
b. 10-0 doesn't really develop anyone. 5-0, 6-0 though can be a valuable learning experience.
c. There are teams at the higher level that view your team the same way
d. The ultimate conclusion of your reasoning then is there should be more flights, not less. In Spain, for example, youth soccer has 10 flights. I think England is the same....maybe 7? Flight 1 should be reserved in SoCal for the 5-10 boys teams, and 3-7 girls teams with potential pro ambitions. fewer clubs, 1 organization to regulate it all and reign in any rebels that try to break the system.

a. Driving anywhere in LA area is 30 minutes. Games take 2 hours with warmup.
b. 10-0 is what you'll get from a team that couldn't even consistently win in F2 when they play F1 or higher. Stay in F2, learn to win with proper soccer. Move to F1 and at least be a challenge for the other team.
c. So what.
d. Sure.

 

[Emma]

MLS NEXT and ECNL has way too many teams to be pro bound players only. They appear to be more of a league that wants to see the top 10% and see where that 10% lands when physical and mental maturity hits - college or pro. There's nothing wrong with having a top tier only program if it really allows top tier teams to join.

Average U9/u10 players don't know how to cut off angles but the elite ones do they may not grow up to be elite as others start learning how to handle angles but at that age, they're the top of the class. That's why they play flight 1 at that age. You're right, most kids are not doing it at that age, that's why they should be playing flight 3 like most kids should. Nothing wrong with that until they do start to accelerate. Parents can't seem to understand this. They want their kids labeled as special and elite at u9/u10 or else they quit the sport or find a new team. U9/U10 average kids may be the future elite kids, depending on how their bodies and mind develop. Most 8/9 year olds are not going to show signs of whether they will be a doctor or business entrepreneur yet. A few will and then change their minds later because science or managing people is too difficult. Let the kids play at the appropriate level and don't get sold as "Champions league" when it's actually flight 3 renamed for parents.

 

[Grace T.]

I think it is a big part of some parent's identity. I have never seen kids bug each other about it. Kids, especially at younger ages, aren't over thinking this. A lot of kids and parents are proud of when their kids win a few games here and there, or when they earn their way from Bronze to Silver, or just compete in Silver.

Lots of teams stay together in Silver for years. They just want to have some good games and good moments, maybe play in high school. All this talk about college and pro ball etc is mostly an echo chamber here.

On my son's middle school team I can guarantee you the kids are comparing when and where they are placed. I agree some silver teams are happy to just sit there (not true of the bronze BTW)...another part of the puzzle is that some people really do approach soccer as little league, and some people are approaching it with pro and college ambitions (particularly once you get to the older ages). It pulls things in different directions and has this distortive effect where the system isn't perfect for either ambition. Of course the clubs go along with it because they aren't stupid and it means more $.

 

[Grace T.]

MLS NEXT and ECNL has way too many teams to be pro bound players only. They appear to be more of a league that wants to see the top 10% and see where that 10% lands when physical and mental maturity hits - college or pro. There's nothing wrong with having a top tier only program if it really allows top tier teams to join.

Average U9/u10 players don't know how to cut off angles but the elite ones do they may not grow up to be elite as others start learning how to handle angles but at that age, they're the top of the class. That's why they play flight 1 at that age. You're right, most kids are not doing it at that age, that's why they should be playing flight 3 like most kids should. Nothing wrong with that until they do start to accelerate. Parents can't seem to understand this. They want their kids labeled as special and elite at u9/u10 or else they quit the sport or find a new team. U9/U10 average kids may be the future elite kids, depending on how their bodies and mind develop. Most 8/9 year olds are not going to show signs of whether they will be a doctor or business entrepreneur yet. A few will and then change their minds later because science or managing people is too difficult. Let the kids play at the appropriate level and don't get sold as "Champions league" when it's actually flight 3 renamed for parents.

MLS is the pro bound system, at least on the boys end (there's no reason for a boys ECNL to exist if the tiers really are about competition). It's the MLS teams and cannon fodder so they can scrimmage without having to fly every time. The problem then becomes every one wants to join this system because they don't want to be left out of the competition/college looks/prestige. I agree there are too many teams. If you want it tiered flight 1 should mean flight 1 which is just a handful of teams that the truly superior players can go to. But then (until the MLS has pro/rel) there is no pro/rel for these teams.

There are natural GKS and early bloomers but no GK coach worth their salt is teaching a U9/U10 goalkeeper how to cut off the angles. .At that age, the GKs aren't even supposed to be playing in goal full time and aren't supposed to be doing much extra training on it and are supposed to be rotating through. There are no "elite" GKs at U9/U10....that just doesn't exist. You have some big players that can block big goals and you have some athletic players that can do a decent job but none of them know what they are doing. At that age, the GK coaches of any repute are teaching them how to dive safely (not effectively), the basics of positioning, the basics of distribution (to be used later), catching and stance. If they are teaching tactics and angle play to an 8 year old they are doing it wrong.

 

[Woodwork]

On my son's middle school team I can guarantee you the kids are comparing when and where they are placed. I agree some silver teams are happy to just sit there (not true of the bronze BTW)...another part of the puzzle is that some people really do approach soccer as little league, and some people are approaching it with pro and college ambitions (particularly once you get to the older ages). It pulls things in different directions and has this distortive effect where the system isn't perfect for either ambition. Of course the clubs go along with it because they aren't stupid and it means more $.

Junior high schoolers will be a bit more aware. Identity-wise, I submit that the ones in higher flights care about this a lot more than the ones in bronze, and the ones in bronze aren't crying themselves to sleep that your son happens to play at a higher level.

 

[Grace T.]

Junior high schoolers will be a bit more aware. Identity-wise, I submit that the ones in higher flights care about this a lot more than the ones in bronze, and the ones in bronze aren't crying themselves to sleep that your son happens to play at a higher level.

Fair. I am sensitive about this though since my son recently left a bronze team with the world's best coach for development and friends he dearly loved for a higher placed team with a lot more pressure on him. He made the election because he was getting frustrated with his inability to develop more with his teammates and recognized he had hit a dead end if the team was going to play yet another season in bronze. He's not the first that has done this, which forces the team every time it loses a top player to reset, rinse, repeat.

 

[Eagle33]

MLS is the pro bound system, at least on the boys end (there's no reason for a boys ECNL to exist if the tiers really are about competition). It's the MLS teams and cannon fodder so they can scrimmage without having to fly every time. The problem then becomes every one wants to join this system because they don't want to be left out of the competition/college looks/prestige. I agree there are too many teams. If you want it tiered flight 1 should mean flight 1 which is just a handful of teams that the truly superior players can go to. But then (until the MLS has pro/rel) there is no pro/rel for these teams.

There are natural GKS and early bloomers but no GK coach worth their salt is teaching a U9/U10 goalkeeper how to cut off the angles. .At that age, the GKs aren't even supposed to be playing in goal full time and aren't supposed to be doing much extra training on it and are supposed to be rotating through. There are no "elite" GKs at U9/U10....that just doesn't exist. You have some big players that can block big goals and you have some athletic players that can do a decent job but none of them know what they are doing. At that age, the GK coaches of any repute are teaching them how to dive safely (not effectively), the basics of positioning, the basics of distribution (to be used later), catching and stance. If they are teaching tactics and angle play to an 8 year old they are doing it wrong.

ECNL system is set up to put kids into Colleges not to pros

 

[Grace T.]

ECNL system is set up to put kids into Colleges not to pros

Yup which was my point. One (prob the main) reason we have this hodgepodge system in the US is because of the distortive effects of college on the youth game. If the tiers were just about competition, ENCL wouldn't exist.