CSL Strong???

soccersc said:
There probably isn't any place to put that team, but what I am saying the same thing can happen in SoCal league as well. This problem isn't specific to one type of league, it's universal. I think you are also looking at this through a youngers lense, as the kids get older this becomes less of a problem.
I think a lot of it has to do with players at the younger ages still don't know if they really like soccer, or they just want to play a sport, or their parents just want them to play. As they approach middle school those fridge players who didn't really want to play, or they are just average players, begin to drop off and the levels begin to balance out.

Here's the other major problem...Younger ages still have rec players wanting to play club, I think that's the biggest problem, club is not unique anymore at the younger ages so you get these lopsided teams from clubs that take ANYONE, and then you have other clubs that still treat it as "club" and only take players that are "club ready" If clubs would only take kids that can actually play, there distribution would'nt be so vast and teams would be more balanced at the younger ages.
Click to expand...

I agree the same thing can and does happen in SoCal as well. The difference, though, is no one is locked into anything so it makes it easier to adjust. The teams in my examples have no such flexibility (if CSL enforces the rules): the silver team would be relegated and destroy the bronze teams (and just get repromoted taking a spot away from another team that might be ready), the bronze team will be promoted and be destroyed itself, the silver teams will be locked into their spots instead of being moved up to silver elite, and my son's former AYSO United team still has to go through bronze and destroy all it's competition 12-0 which serves no one.

"actually play". At U9 yes you have some skilled players that know their craft. As previously stated, in the overwhelming majority of cases that does not include the goalkeeper (who should not be playing FT anyway) and many of those kids are just bigger and older and faster rather than skilled. And then you have my son's AYSO United team which came largely out of extras and just wrecks its competition. I don't think it's a solution to say "well it works when it gets older", if the youngers are a mess. Yeah, it works out when they get older, but there are a lot of bad collateral side effects along the way, including the overall focus on having to do what it takes to earn the promotion instead of you know, actually developing your players (like this team which took the promotion, dropped its goalkeeper for an upgrade, and yet still managed to lose all its games)
 
That was one of the nice things about league cup, which will continue next year. You have a tourney that puts everyone together. Gold teams usually get byes. They put a silver elite, a silver and two bronze teams together in about 16 groups. They then play a tournament that is similar to what you would see in State Cup. Good chance to prove yourself, as well as have data to use to get adjusted for the following year.
 
Grace T. said:
I agree the same thing can and does happen in SoCal as well. The difference, though, is no one is locked into anything so it makes it easier to adjust. The teams in my examples have no such flexibility (if CSL enforces the rules): the silver team would be relegated and destroy the bronze teams (and just get repromoted taking a spot away from another team that might be ready), the bronze team will be promoted and be destroyed itself, the silver teams will be locked into their spots instead of being moved up to silver elite, and my son's former AYSO United team still has to go through bronze and destroy all it's competition 12-0 which serves no one.

"actually play". At U9 yes you have some skilled players that know their craft. As previously stated, in the overwhelming majority of cases that does not include the goalkeeper (who should not be playing FT anyway) and many of those kids are just bigger and older and faster rather than skilled. And then you have my son's AYSO United team which came largely out of extras and just wrecks its competition. I don't think it's a solution to say "well it works when it gets older", if the youngers are a mess. Yeah, it works out when they get older, but there are a lot of bad collateral side effects along the way, including the overall focus on having to do what it takes to earn the promotion instead of you know, actually developing your players (like this team which took the promotion, dropped its goalkeeper for an upgrade, and yet still managed to lose all its games)
Click to expand...

If you want to fix it, you will have to go to all the clubs that take any kid and put them on a club team just to collect the fees. To them it is a business, when you are getting teams that have no reason to play club, you will get lopsided games. If clubs would only select kids that belong in club to their club teams and kids that are rec level go back and play rec, the leagues would be more competitive all around. But clubs want money so they will continue to take anyone willing to pay. Because no matter what you do or how you try to determine leagues there will always be a team at the bottom and a team at the top, no matter what league. Whether promotion/relegation or DOC placement, there is always going to be a team misplaced. I would argue that teams placed by DOC have way more teams misplaced than teams in promotion/relegation
 
soccersc said:
If you want to fix it, you will have to go to all the clubs that take any kid and put them on a club team just to collect the fees. To them it is a business, when you are getting teams that have no reason to play club, you will get lopsided games. If clubs would only select kids that belong in club to their club teams and kids that are rec level go back and play rec, the leagues would be more competitive all around. But clubs want money so they will continue to take anyone willing to pay. Because no matter what you do or how you try to determine leagues there will always be a team at the bottom and a team at the top, no matter what league. Whether promotion/relegation or DOC placement, there is always going to be a team misplaced. I would argue that teams placed by DOC have way more teams misplaced than teams in promotion/relegation
Click to expand...

Wow that's the most elitist thing I've seen on these boards. Those kids aren't worthy to play rec so get rid of them. You may as well tell your friend Gary "I want you to keep these subs away from me. I don't want any distractions from these whiny wannabes, just keep them out of my face."

That's not the solution...the solution is to make an appropriate tier for them. It's not their fault the soccer world has fractured so we don't have a unified development pathway. It's not their fault we have CSL v. SoCal so the bottom clubs have to play filler. It's not their fault Extras isn't part of the unified structure. It's not their fault adults care more about preserving their turf (whether US Soccer, Coast or AYSO) then coming up with them with a unified pathway.

And if we're really talking about pathways, hey how about Europe...everyone except the future pros play rec...your DS and DDs going on to play college ball just play higher level rec.
 
Grace T. said:
I agree the same thing can and does happen in SoCal as well. The difference, though, is no one is locked into anything so it makes it easier to adjust. The teams in my examples have no such flexibility (if CSL enforces the rules): the silver team would be relegated and destroy the bronze teams (and just get repromoted taking a spot away from another team that might be ready), the bronze team will be promoted and be destroyed itself, the silver teams will be locked into their spots instead of being moved up to silver elite, and my son's former AYSO United team still has to go through bronze and destroy all it's competition 12-0 which serves no one.

"actually play". At U9 yes you have some skilled players that know their craft. As previously stated, in the overwhelming majority of cases that does not include the goalkeeper (who should not be playing FT anyway) and many of those kids are just bigger and older and faster rather than skilled. And then you have my son's AYSO United team which came largely out of extras and just wrecks its competition. I don't think it's a solution to say "well it works when it gets older", if the youngers are a mess. Yeah, it works out when they get older, but there are a lot of bad collateral side effects along the way, including the overall focus on having to do what it takes to earn the promotion instead of you know, actually developing your players (like this team which took the promotion, dropped its goalkeeper for an upgrade, and yet still managed to lose all its games)
Click to expand...

Here are some examples for you...this took like 2 minutes to find...I just picked a random age group B2010 in SCDSL Spring these 3 teams are getting blown out by 5-7 goals a game on average. That's just one age group randomly picked at F2. It happens at all levels, then they tell the parents something like, well it was our first year in F2 so it is expected and they come back the next year and same thing happens, but maybe they win one more, so they tell the parents, see we got a little better even though they only won 1 or 2 more games, so parents come back again to F2 but by now all the good F2 teams are playing F1 so they win more than half the games and parents are so excited, I've seen it, too many times

 
Grace T. said:
Wow that's the most elitist thing I've seen on these boards. Those kids aren't worthy to play rec so get rid of them. You may as well tell your friend Gary "I want you to keep these subs away from me. I don't want any distractions from these whiny wannabes, just keep them out of my face."

That's not the solution...the solution is to make an appropriate tier for them. It's not their fault the soccer world has fractured so we don't have a unified development pathway. It's not their fault we have CSL v. SoCal so the bottom clubs have to play filler. It's not their fault Extras isn't part of the unified structure. It's not their fault adults care more about preserving their turf (whether US Soccer, Coast or AYSO) then coming up with them with a unified pathway.

And if we're really talking about pathways, hey how about Europe...everyone except the future pros play rec...your DS and DDs going on to play college ball just play higher level rec.
Click to expand...

Why is that elitist...that is how kids can develop. You don't put a struggling student that has scored below average on state testing in a gate class...they would get frustrated and really want to quit...put them at a level that they can succeed and let them love the game and enjoy it rather than getting waxed every weekend and paying a ridiculous amount of money at a level they aren't ready for. Continue to work on their own and get better then go try club.

You are one of the parents that want to give every kid a trophy, that is the problem these days, kids don't understand hard work, they just expect it to be given to them...kids feel they are entitled now because even when they don't work their hardest they still get a trophy or an award because we are afraid to make little Johnny sad....so unfortunate
 
soccersc said:
Here are some examples for you...this took like 2 minutes to find...I just picked a random age group B2010 in SCDSL Spring these 3 teams are getting blown out by 5-7 goals a game on average. That's just one age group randomly picked at F2. It happens at all levels, then they tell the parents something like, well it was our first year in F2 so it is expected and they come back the next year and same thing happens, but maybe they win one more, so they tell the parents, see we got a little better even though they only won 1 or 2 more games, so parents come back again to F2 but by now all the good F2 teams are playing F1 so they win more than half the games and parents are so excited, I've seen it, too many times

Click to expand...

So why isn't that an acceptable outcome. In my promoted team scenario that would mean the team has the option to advance or stay put and know they aren't locked into anything.

soccersc said:
Why is that elitist...that is how kids can develop. You don't put a struggling student that has scored below average on state testing in a gate class...they would get frustrated and really want to quit...put them at a level that they can succeed and let them love the game and enjoy it rather than getting waxed every weekend and paying a ridiculous amount of money at a level they aren't ready for. Continue to work on their own and get better then go try club.

You are one of the parents that want to give every kid a trophy, that is the problem these days, kids don't understand hard work, they just expect it to be given to them...kids feel they are entitled now because even when they don't work their hardest they still get a trophy or an award because we are afraid to make little Johnny sad....so unfortunate
Click to expand...

Ha ha. That's funny. I'm the furthest from that kind of parent and have actually from time to time been accused by relatives and friends about being a little harsh with the kids. In both education and sports, I actually believe in tiering and I'm a very harsh critic of the plan to level the math playing field in California until 11th grade.

Which is why I say the kids should have an appropriate path way (not everyone getting the same path way). The struggling student shouldn't be put on the flight 1 team. But that struggling student should have a way (mapped out by those in charge) to be put on an appropriate levelled team instead of just getting dropped and the coach waiving too bad so sad see yah next year.

And if you really meant that club ball should be accessible only for the select few, well that select few should be real small....future pros only, like in the rest of the world. Everyone else including your DS or DD can play tiered rec.

"All those in favor of going A and B next year for the U8 program, raise your hand."
 
Grace T. said:
I agree the same thing can and does happen in SoCal as well. The difference, though, is no one is locked into anything so it makes it easier to adjust. The teams in my examples have no such flexibility (if CSL enforces the rules): the silver team would be relegated and destroy the bronze teams (and just get repromoted taking a spot away from another team that might be ready), the bronze team will be promoted and be destroyed itself, the silver teams will be locked into their spots instead of being moved up to silver elite, and my son's former AYSO United team still has to go through bronze and destroy all it's competition 12-0 which serves no one.

"actually play". At U9 yes you have some skilled players that know their craft. As previously stated, in the overwhelming majority of cases that does not include the goalkeeper (who should not be playing FT anyway) and many of those kids are just bigger and older and faster rather than skilled. And then you have my son's AYSO United team which came largely out of extras and just wrecks its competition. I don't think it's a solution to say "well it works when it gets older", if the youngers are a mess. Yeah, it works out when they get older, but there are a lot of bad collateral side effects along the way, including the overall focus on having to do what it takes to earn the promotion instead of you know, actually developing your players (like this team which took the promotion, dropped its goalkeeper for an upgrade, and yet still managed to lose all its games)
Click to expand...
No One is locked in CSL either - there's a petition that is generally granted. Only time it's not granted is if your coach lies to you about petitioning and it's probably because the coach knows the team is not ready for the next level but unrealistic parents parents kept pushing for a higher flight.

We've been pushed into a higher flight by parents and DOC. It caused A LOT of problems. Losing a lot causes ugly sides of people to come out.
 
Emma said:
No One is locked in CSL either - there's a petition that is generally granted. Only time it's not granted is if your coach lies to you about petitioning and it's probably because the coach knows the team is not ready for the next level but unrealistic parents parents kept pushing for a higher flight.

We've been pushed into a higher flight by parents and DOC. It caused A LOT of problems. Losing a lot causes ugly sides of people to come out.
Click to expand...

Agree here and that safety valve is the only thing that doesn't cause the entire CSL thing to come crashing down.

If you really wanted an honest assessment, you'd put evaluators in charge to assign flights based on points earned, tournaments, placement in cups and placement in prior league (plus the rankings of individual players coming and going from the team). But the question remains then who is better at making that assessment (considering bad results can take place in either league): the DOC and coaches, or an arbitrary rule system that has quotas, is mathematically irregular, and only takes a look at narrow criteria.
 
Grace T. said:
Agree here and that safety valve is the only thing that doesn't cause the entire CSL thing to come crashing down.

If you really wanted an honest assessment, you'd put evaluators in charge to assign flights based on points earned, tournaments, placement in cups and placement in prior league (plus the rankings of individual players coming and going from the team). But the question remains then who is better at making that assessment (considering bad results can take place in either league): the DOC and coaches, or an arbitrary rule system that has quotas, is mathematically irregular, and only takes a look at narrow criteria.
Click to expand...

Not cost effective either. Everything is subjective except winning and losing. Then a petition process for times when it's needed due to losing a lot of players, gaining great players, or if team just made great advancement towards end of season or off season.

Oh wait - we had/have that in CSL.
 
Emma said:
Not cost effective either. Everything is subjective except winning and losing. Then a petition process for times when it's needed due to losing a lot of players, gaining great players, or if team just made great advancement towards end of season or off season.

Oh wait - we had/have that in CSL.
Click to expand...
But we don’t because CSL sometimes doesn’t allow it (again due to imperfect info). Otherwise what’s the difference with allowing teams to pick? For example: my sons United team that should have started in silver instead of destroying its competition 12-0. Instead it’s just a game of trying to qualify for the next level and then avoiding relegation by whining about it
 
Grace T. said:
But we don’t because CSL sometimes doesn’t allow it (again due to imperfect info). Otherwise what’s the difference with allowing teams to pick? For example: my sons United team that should have started in silver instead of destroying its competition 12-0. Instead it’s just a game of trying to qualify for the next level and then avoiding relegation by whining about it
Click to expand...
Sorry to hear that your team was in the wrong grouping. Was this just this spring or before covid?
 
Emma said:
Sorry to hear that your team was in the wrong grouping. Was this just this spring or before covid?
Click to expand...
2 years ago. It wasn't the only team that petitioned to start up. My son had been on a team that had been trying to organize, won a few tournaments but fell apart when CSL said no to the petition to start silver. The good kids they had recruited to play just walked away because they didn't want to play bronze and suddenly they were under the number of players needed. He was lucky he got picked up by AYSO United at the last minute.

They are more lenient with the rel petition appeals than they are with the pro. And in the rel for silver I've now seen 2 local groupings where teams that lost every game didn't get relegated. In the current grouping this silver team that lost every game played, 3 of the teams could play silver elite....they wouldn't be at the top of the bracket but they could play....I'm curious to see how many CSL actually promotes out.
 
Grace T. said:
2 years ago. It wasn't the only team that petitioned to start up. My son had been on a team that had been trying to organize, won a few tournaments but fell apart when CSL said no to the petition to start silver. The good kids they had recruited to play just walked away because they didn't want to play bronze and suddenly they were under the number of players needed. He was lucky he got picked up by AYSO United at the last minute.

They are more lenient with the rel petition appeals than they are with the pro. And in the rel for silver I've now seen 2 local groupings where teams that lost every game didn't get relegated. In the current grouping this silver team that lost every game played, 3 of the teams could play silver elite....they wouldn't be at the top of the bracket but they could play....I'm curious to see how many CSL actually promotes out.
Click to expand...

It's a self feeding cycle BTW. CSL doesn't want to promote recklessly because it wants to protect the competition level for the higher flights. Plus, if team does get sent to the higher flights and doesn't perform, they'll whine and complain about getting relegated....which makes them even more reluctant to promote teams which might otherwise be competitive because they can't then get rid of them. Pro/rel doesn't work without the rel part and except for the highest flight, they don't really want to do it because they know if they do it without the consent of the team it will blow that team up. And, at least for the youngers, the silver and bronze brackets will remain a mess unless they make even more brackets, which they seem reluctant to do not only because of the driving and admin issues, but because it also blows up the entire gold/silver/bronze thing.
 
Grace T. said:
Wow that's the most elitist thing I've seen on these boards. Those kids aren't worthy to play rec so get rid of them. You may as well tell your friend Gary "I want you to keep these subs away from me. I don't want any distractions from these whiny wannabes, just keep them out of my face."

That's not the solution...the solution is to make an appropriate tier for them. It's not their fault the soccer world has fractured so we don't have a unified development pathway. It's not their fault we have CSL v. SoCal so the bottom clubs have to play filler. It's not their fault Extras isn't part of the unified structure. It's not their fault adults care more about preserving their turf (whether US Soccer, Coast or AYSO) then coming up with them with a unified pathway.

And if we're really talking about pathways, hey how about Europe...everyone except the future pros play rec...your DS and DDs going on to play college ball just play higher level rec.
Click to expand...
So I hear SoCal is making Rec tier for next season
 
SoccerFan4Life said:
Leave Rec alone! Let ayso and other local organizations handle that.
Click to expand...

some major clubs set up rec leagues for the littlest ones. There’s one affiliated with real so cal in the west val, another one with the simi clubs in simi, and ole does a futsal league in the east val.It’s a way of identifying “talent” (aka not just soccer skills but kids close to the age line that are otherwise tall and fast) that you can put on your u9 teams so those u9 teams can go on and win promotions

it’s the strategy employed by ayso United which builds teams by drawing from a large rec base from kids that might otherwise play baseball or basketball but because they are there during soccer season ca. Be Id and sold on soccer. To its credit though at least ayso United has an exam which measures soccer skills, even if it does advantage strikers over defenders.

again the issue is these adult figures in the soccer world care more about protecting their turf than creating a unified promotion system like they have in other countries. So instead of kids getting assigned to appropriate levels based on their skill level, you have this mush of a tryout system where the parents are guessing if a team is appropriate and teams may take players not because they are ready but because they need bodies.
 
Grace T. said:
So recently came across an example of why the CSL tier system works imperfectly. So, in my son's 2019 bronze grouping one team swept all their games except for 1 which they tied. Against a new team coming up from AYSO, they won 12-0. Some of the games were closer including against my son's team 3-1 with both teams having good opportunities. They took promotion to silver. For the truncated 2020 season this promoted team was in a group with 5 other teams which had been together for a while, all of whom were gunning for silver elite. The newly promoted silver team did "upgrade" for the season, recruiting some strong kids on the grounds they were now silver and even upgrading their goalkeeper who was dropped and shifted to another bronze team. They lost every single game in their bracket, some by as many as 8 points.

So what do you do with this team? Relegate them to bronze where they'll lose their best players but still destroy the newly formed teams up and coming? Another team from the 2020 season is taking promotion which won only about 80% of its games. This team is far weaker than the previously promoted team and will likely play in the same silver bracket due to geography. Is it going to fare much better in the bracket with silver teams that have now been playing together for a while? At least the 2019 promoted team will now have someone to beat if they stay in silver.
Click to expand...

Wait until you see what CSL actually does. First, I believe they didn't require all teams to participate in spring in light of the fact that the pandemic hurt their readiness, and I don't think they intend to punish those that participated this spring despite not being ready. Second, I have seen a lot of instances where they don't relegate a last place team. Especially at the younger ages, they will move up a whole bunch of teams to SE or Gold because those are new brackets at older ages and the last place teams just stay in silver. Or they see that there were a lot of close games and will likely be fine next year. Third, if you really read the CSL "System," they build in their own discretion. Most of the time, if the coach makes a good argument for staying in bracket, they stay in bracket.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top