Water break request at State Cup this weekend?

S

Soccer Dad & Ref

SILVER ELITE
U14 girls team asked for water breaks during coin flip. They only had 11, the temperature was in the mid 60's. Ref gave it to them.

Not sure I would give that, the law is all about high humidity and temperatures. Usually the tournament will announce when they will allow them to be asked for.

What would you do?
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
U14 girls team asked for water breaks during coin flip. They only had 11, the temperature was in the mid 60's. Ref gave it to them.

Not sure I would give that, the law is all about high humidity and temperatures. Usually the tournament will announce when they will allow them to be asked for.

What would you do?
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I would check with my ref coordinator considering it was National Cup. If the tournament approves or disapproves I don't care either way.
 
It was State Cup, President's division.

They did not send out a notice that water breaks were advised, much like we get during summer tournaments that have planned high heat.

I just think the ref was caught off guard, and did not have the courage to say no, there is no heat and that the tournament did not provide an advanced notice.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
It was State Cup, President's division.

They did not send out a notice that water breaks were advised, much like we get during summer tournaments that have planned high heat.

I just think the ref was caught off guard, and did not have the courage to say no, there is no heat and that the tournament did not provide an advanced notice.
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Why you so concern about this? Did your team lost because the other team took water break? Did the other team took water break and your team did not? Whats wrong with having a water break, no matter what temperature is? I wouldn't care one way or the other.
 
Yeah, it was the team we were playing. I'm just anal about laws and tournament rules, and didn't think it was a valid request. From the beginning I complained to the AR that it was invalid. They had 11, but again, the weather was very cool. We have about 5-6 players that play the whole game and only get water at half. The other coach used the breaks to coach. We won, 2-0 by the way, but like I said, it bothered me from the get go...
 
Quite frankly, I'm not sure why it would matter. I personally couldn't care less. Sounds like first world problems and not being able to see the forest for the trees (not that I'm innocent of those myself sometimes) .

Maybe in an abundance of caution the ref should ask the other coach if they have any major objection to a water break, and if they do object, tell the coach not to be a dick.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
Yeah, it was the team we were playing. I'm just anal about laws and tournament rules, and didn't think it was a valid request. From the beginning I complained to the AR that it was invalid. They had 11, but again, the weather was very cool. We have about 5-6 players that play the whole game and only get water at half. The other coach used the breaks to coach. We won, 2-0 by the way, but like I said, it bothered me from the get go...
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Did the AR give you a look that might have meant "Oh, you're one of THOSE parents"?
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
Yeah, it was the team we were playing. I'm just anal about laws and tournament rules, and didn't think it was a valid request. From the beginning I complained to the AR that it was invalid. They had 11, but again, the weather was very cool. We have about 5-6 players that play the whole game and only get water at half. The other coach used the breaks to coach. We won, 2-0 by the way, but like I said, it bothered me from the get go...
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When I'm coaching, I would hate to have a ref like yourself. I would highly suggest to get to know Law 18 as soon as possible.
 
I'm getting ganged up here, so I guess I'm the Dick and that "Parent", and someone that would be hated when reffing. When I ref, I let them play, don't call trifling fouls, talk to the kids a lot, etc. I don't call fouls on keepers for holding for more than 6 seconds, or worry about the exact spot a throw-in is taken. It just seems something like this is a rule written into a tournament and then adhered to or not. To me, it was about him playing with only 11 and hoping to take advantage of us having subs, so hoping to game the system.
 
And to further confuse you, I'm not the type of ref that worries about sock color, undershirt color, or color of straps to hold shinguards. Even at SDDA level here in San Diego. I'm sure the DA refs have to adhere to those rules, but at SDDA and Presidio, I just don't think it's a problem, It's more about getting the kids out there playing. So I really don't know why i'm so bothered by the other team getting water breaks, lol
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
I'm getting ganged up here, so I guess I'm the Dick and that "Parent", and someone that would be hated when reffing. When I ref, I let them play, don't call trifling fouls, talk to the kids a lot, etc. I don't call fouls on keepers for holding for more than 6 seconds, or worry about the exact spot a throw-in is taken. It just seems something like this is a rule written into a tournament and then adhered to or not. To me, it was about him playing with only 11 and hoping to take advantage of us having subs, so hoping to game the system.
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Sure, your perspective is the other coach tried to game the system. Another perspective is the other coach was just looking out for his kids. In the history of this beautiful game, no game was ever won or lost because of a water break.

Sorry, you came across as "that Parent" that could use a good tackle from Bobby Boucher :).
 
The nerve of those 13 year old girls getting thirsty!!!

When a water break is used when the temps aren’t too high, it’s usually because both coaches have agreed to it.
 
As ref, there may be things you dont know. Maybe one of the kids overheated last month and the coach wants to play it safe. Maybe the break lets a diabetic kid have a snack.

Simplest to to add a break.
 
I believe Law 5 of the LOTG was amended several years ago to empower the Referee with the sole authority to allow or disallow water breaks. Sometimes, competition rules will include that authority in their rules as a matter of convenience for all to see. Absent that, the LOTG shall take precedence.

That said, I'm always told that if a single player requests it, then I should allow it. Personally, I always follow this tact, regardless of environmental conditions. Player safety is number 1, and it is not my purview to interrogate any player about their request.

The old method of getting agreement from one or both coaches to agree to water breaks went out the window with the LOTG amendment.
 
In the 2019/20 LOTG it's Law 7 (The Duration of the Match) that governs.
Allowance is made by the referee in each half for all time lost in that half through:
- medical stoppages permitted by competition rules e.g. 'drinks' breaks (which should not exceed one minute) and 'cooling' breaks (ninety seconds to three minutes)

I agree that the coach with only 11 players is trying to game the system. The State Cup Rules don't mention these breaks but I understand Cal South has sent instructions for water/cooling breaks prior to weekends when high temperatures at match sites are expected. With temperatures in the mid-60s and lack of a specific authorization by Cal South I think my Law 18 approach would be to suggest that the coach remind players needing water to come to the touchline to get a drink during play or an injury stoppage.
 
twoclubpapa said:
I agree that the coach with only 11 players is trying to game the system.
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Exactly what system is that? Does this system override common sense and sportsmanship? Is the fact that this ref granted the water break a threat to the "system" and the authority of other refs? Do refs assume that any action taken by a coach is done with nefarious intent?

Why is it so offensive for a coach to think of the best interests of his short-sided team? It doesn't negatively impact the other team. The other coach may have welcomed a water break. I don't know of any decent coach that would object to a water break, unless they are so blindly focused on winning that they want to use every tactic to exploit the short-sided team.

Apparently for some the "system" is more important than the kids. It seems we've lost some perspective.
 
It was 60 degrees out with light humidity (not hot and dry). These are 13-year-olds that can go 35 minutes without a water break, in fact, 5-7 of each team's players usually can just fine (in weather like this), and did, the last two weekends. These weren't 7-year-olds in 107-degree heat.



Here is the Explanation of the Law below. My highlight in Red. Like I said before, I just didn't see the competition rules discussing it.

Law 07 – The Duration of the Match
3. Allowance for time lost
Amended text
Allowance is made by the referee in each half for all time lost in that half
through:
(…)
•• stoppages for drinks (which should not exceed one minute) or other medical
reasons permitted by competition rules
•• medical stoppages permitted by competition rules e.g. ’drinks’ breaks (which
should not exceed one minute) and ‘cooling’ breaks (ninety seconds to three
minutes)

Explanation
In the interests of player safety, competition rules may allow, in certain weather
conditions (e.g. high humidity and temperatures), ‘cooling’ breaks (from ninety
seconds to three minutes) to allow the body’s temperature to fall; they are
different from ‘drinks’ breaks (maximum one minute) which are for rehydration.
 
watfly said:
Exactly what system is that? Does this system override common sense and sportsmanship? Is the fact that this ref granted the water break a threat to the "system" and the authority of other refs? Do refs assume that any action taken by a coach is done with nefarious intent?
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The system is the Laws of the Game and Competition Rules. Referees are instructed in Law 5 as follows: "Decisions will be made to the best of the referee's ability according to the Laws of the Game and the 'spirit of the game' and will be based on the opinion of the referee, who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game." I will note that 'spirit of the game' is often called common sense and often referred to as Law 18.

Wikipedia defines gaming the system as "using the rules and procedures meant to protect a system to, instead, manipulate the system for a desired outcome." Here the coach was faced with a disadvantage (no substitutes against a team with available substitutes) and tried to game the system by asking for something that in certain cases can be permitted by the LOTG/competition rules, but not in this case. Many people would characterize this request as unfair.

My suggestion applied Law 18 with an approach which didn't violate the LOTG/competition rules and yet provided a solution for those players who may need a water/cooling break for temperatures in the mid-60s. It was fair to all.

If temperatures were high enough that player safety is threatened then Law 18 undoubtedly instructs us referees to apply the common sense solution of water/cooling breaks.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
It was 60 degrees out with light humidity (not hot and dry). These are 13-year-olds that can go 35 minutes without a water break, in fact, 5-7 of each team's players usually can just fine (in weather like this), and did, the last two weekends. These weren't 7-year-olds in 107-degree heat.



Here is the Explanation of the Law below. My highlight in Red. Like I said before, I just didn't see the competition rules discussing it.

Law 07 – The Duration of the Match
3. Allowance for time lost
Amended text
Allowance is made by the referee in each half for all time lost in that half
through:
(…)
•• stoppages for drinks (which should not exceed one minute) or other medical
reasons permitted by competition rules
•• medical stoppages permitted by competition rules e.g. ’drinks’ breaks (which
should not exceed one minute) and ‘cooling’ breaks (ninety seconds to three
minutes)

Explanation
In the interests of player safety, competition rules may allow, in certain weather
conditions (e.g. high humidity and temperatures), ‘cooling’ breaks (from ninety
seconds to three minutes) to allow the body’s temperature to fall; they are
different from ‘drinks’ breaks (maximum one minute) which are for rehydration.
Click to expand...
Common sense needs to prevail. Otherwise, we will have more referees who make kids change their socks to comply with the laws. From your own description, the request for water break was made prior to the game at coin flip. The referee used his discretion and granted, and your coach did not object. If this really was a big deal, your coach should've objected. Perhaps your own coach didn't mind a water break himself.

Why were you complaining to the AR anyway? As a referee yourself, you should know better than most that parents should never communicate with the referees. :)
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
It was 60 degrees out with light humidity (not hot and dry). These are 13-year-olds that can go 35 minutes without a water break, in fact, 5-7 of each team's players usually can just fine (in weather like this), and did, the last two weekends. These weren't 7-year-olds in 107-degree heat.



Here is the Explanation of the Law below. My highlight in Red. Like I said before, I just didn't see the competition rules discussing it.

Law 07 – The Duration of the Match
3. Allowance for time lost
Amended text
Allowance is made by the referee in each half for all time lost in that half
through:
(…)
•• stoppages for drinks (which should not exceed one minute) or other medical
reasons permitted by competition rules
•• medical stoppages permitted by competition rules e.g. ’drinks’ breaks (which
should not exceed one minute) and ‘cooling’ breaks (ninety seconds to three
minutes)

Explanation
In the interests of player safety, competition rules may allow, in certain weather
conditions (e.g. high humidity and temperatures), ‘cooling’ breaks (from ninety
seconds to three minutes) to allow the body’s temperature to fall; they are
different from ‘drinks’ breaks (maximum one minute) which are for rehydration.
Click to expand...

Dude, why you still going on and on about this? What's to understand?
If one team would have water break and the other was not allowed, then we would have something to talk about.
Both teams were given water break, both teams switched sides at the half, both teams played the game on the same field. Was it not FAIR? End of the story.
 
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