Santiago vs Harvard-Westlake D1 High school semi-final Ref issue

[soccer dude]

I was a parent (and a previous Ref by the way) on the Santiago sideline today and the Ref ejected our entire sideline today in the 68th minute for no good reason. As a ref myself I was appalled by what the Ref did. Let me explain.

1. There was a questionable PK called in 2nd half which gave HW a 3-1 lead. It was a tight call at best and AR called for a goal kick in conflict of his decision. But, hey, not going to argue the call. Let's move on.
2. After the PK, the coaches yelled a few things at the Ref (as most coaches do). He came over and gave a yellow card. I was ok with this based on what I saw.
3. A few parents yelled a few things in support of the coach. Nothing too serious.
4. As Ref was walking toward the center of the field post-yellow card, he immediately turned around, walked back to the coach and signaled for the ejection of over 200 parents and family. This is where I say boooo.

I was on the 50 yard line and heard nothing derogatory. Ref said that a parent yelled something about being gay but neither I nor any parent said anything close to this. The coach confirmed this with the nearest AR who sided with us.

The issue I have is that the Ref NEVER consulted with his ARs to discuss this and never asked the closest AR if he heard anything derogatory. Furthermore, we were never warned, just thrown out. For all you Refs out there please help me understand this. I have never seen this before in many years of watching, coaching and ref'ing. As a ref I have warned coaches and parents on verbal abuse and have ALWAYS given warnings before ejecting.
I'm attaching what we saw today. Note how the ref only talks to parents and field marshals but never to the ARs who could add important info the discussion. I'm not big on throwing refs under the bus but this guy ruined the day of our entire sideline and should not be centering high school games anymore.

Lastly, HW was the better team today and deserved the win so this has nothing to do with losing.

 

[soccer dude]

Another image

 

[Grace T.]

I was a parent (and a previous Ref by the way) on the Santiago sideline today and the Ref ejected our entire sideline today in the 68th minute for no good reason. As a ref myself I was appalled by what the Ref did. Let me explain.

1. There was a questionable PK called in 2nd half which gave HW a 3-1 lead. It was a tight call at best and AR called for a goal kick in conflict of his decision. But, hey, not going to argue the call. Let's move on.
2. After the PK, the coaches yelled a few things at the Ref (as most coaches do). He came over and gave a yellow card. I was ok with this based on what I saw.
3. A few parents yelled a few things in support of the coach. Nothing too serious.
4. As Ref was walking toward the center of the field post-yellow card, he immediately turned around, walked back to the coach and signaled for the ejection of over 200 parents and family. This is where I say boooo.

I was on the 50 yard line and heard nothing derogatory. Ref said that a parent yelled something about being gay but neither I nor any parent said anything close to this. The coach confirmed this with the nearest AR who sided with us.

The issue I have is that the Ref NEVER consulted with his ARs to discuss this and never asked the closest AR if he heard anything derogatory. Furthermore, we were never warned, just thrown out. For all you Refs out there please help me understand this. I have never seen this before in many years of watching, coaching and ref'ing. As a ref I have warned coaches and parents on verbal abuse and have ALWAYS given warnings before ejecting.
I'm attaching what we saw today. Note how the ref only talks to parents and field marshals but never to the ARs who could add important info the discussion. I'm not big on throwing refs under the bus but this guy ruined the day of our entire sideline and should not be centering high school games anymore.

Lastly, HW was the better team today and deserved the win so this has nothing to do with losing.

Only 2 things I can think of. If there is a racial or homophobic slur there is a no tolerance policy in high school sports. If he did hear that and the offending party was not identified by coaches or the fans turning the person over that would be one reason. You’d think though in this case they’d check with ars to see who it was

Other questions is how much Is “a few” and was the rest of the game heated (2 coaches don’t typically get yellows out of the blue....had they been into it before and what exactly did they say?). If the ref though he was losing control of the situation he’d take this extraordinary step since keeping control of the game is paramount to prevent violence. Hard to tell without more info.

 

[Carlsbad7]

I bet the parents wont yell at the ref next game.

Also I highly doubt you were a ref. If you were youd back the call and let it be. Refs manage difficult players, coaches, parents, and teams all at the same time.

 

[espola]

I bet the parents wont yell at the ref next game.

Also I highly doubt you were a ref. If you were youd back the call and let it be. Refs manage difficult players, coaches, parents, and teams all at the same time.

The thin blue (or yellow or green or red, maybe, today) line?

 

[soccer dude]

I bet the parents wont yell at the ref next game.

Also I highly doubt you were a ref. If you were youd back the call and let it be. Refs manage difficult players, coaches, parents, and teams all at the same time.

Yes, I am a ref and this is an idiotic thing to say. You don't know me. I laid out the facts dude. I agree that NO ONE should ever yell at a ref but from my experience EVERY sideline yells in a big game like this so it's a matter of how much. That's all I'm saying. I personally saw the HW coach running up and down the field yelling at the ref too with no consequences. If the game is getting out of control, which this game was not, then I agree drastic measures need to be done. I actually thought the ref did a good job in the game.

I just have one question. How many refs out there have kicked off an ENTIRE sideline of 200 parents with NO WARNING and no racial or sexual slurs? This is my point.

 

[Carlsbad7]

Yes, I am a ref and this is an idiotic thing to say. You don't know me. I laid out the facts dude. I agree that NO ONE should ever yell at a ref but from my experience EVERY sideline yells in a big game like this so it's a matter of how much. That's all I'm saying. I personally saw the HW coach running up and down the field yelling at the ref too with no consequences. If the game is getting out of control, which this game was not, then I agree drastic measures need to be done. I actually thought the ref did a good job in the game.

I just have one question. How many refs out there have kicked off an ENTIRE sideline of 200 parents with NO WARNING and no racial or sexual slurs? This is my point.

Did the kids get to continue playing?

Will the parents think twice about yelling at a ref next time?

Seems like you're having issues with unwritten rules that a ref needs to stop twice, look left, provide multiple warnings, talk to another ref, etc etc etc before making the call to eject parents.

 

[dad4]

Did the kids get to continue playing?

Will the parents think twice about yelling at a ref next time?

Seems like you're having issues with unwritten rules that a ref needs to stop twice, look left, provide multiple warnings, talk to another ref, etc etc etc before making the call to eject parents.

The parents probably won’t change behavior. They will blame the ref.

If there were enough hecklers to justify removing the whole sideline, then there were enough hecklers to tell each other how right they were and how wrong the ref was. It was probably one of the conversations in the parking lot after they got tossed.

I’d like to think there was a way to convince people to treat the ref as one more person who wears a uniform and makes mistakes. I just don’t know what it is.

 

[futboldad1]

The parents probably won’t change behavior. They will blame the ref.

If there were enough hecklers to justify removing the whole sideline, then there were enough hecklers to tell each other how right they were and how wrong the ref was. It was probably one of the conversations in the parking lot after they got tossed.

1000 percent agree..... and such a bad example for the kids

 

[Carlsbad7]

Theres also a good chance that because the game was being played on HS field that the ref was instructed to have Zero Tolerence on things like Racial / Homophobic / Religious Slurs.

Kids get suspended for doing it why wouldnt the parents be treated the same when on school property.

 

[espola]

Theres also a good chance that because the game was being played on HS field that the ref was instructed to have Zero Tolerence on things like Racial / Homophobic / Religious Slurs.

Kids get suspended for doing it why wouldnt the parents be treated the same when on school property.

They don't suspend the whole school.

 

[Yousername]

Girls D5 game yesterday where the home team’s fans were making racial comments related to COVID pandemic to opposing team’s Asian players. Ref stopped the game and talked to the home coach, but eventually let the game play on. Home team won in 2nd half OT on golden goal rule, but there was nothing done to the home fans. The worst part about this was that it was some of the HS boys, and not one single adult on that side stopped them or attempted to shut them up. I’m guessing the adults in the stands are parents and maybe teachers, staff, faculty. NOT ONE WORD!!! This is happening to a teenage girl!!! Reprehensible and disgusting!!!

 

[soccer dude]

Theres also a good chance that because the game was being played on HS field that the ref was instructed to have Zero Tolerence on things like Racial / Homophobic / Religious Slurs.

Kids get suspended for doing it why wouldnt the parents be treated the same when on school property.

I agree with this and as I said above, none of this happened. I again agree that yelling at the ref should not happen. But how can a ref eject 200 parents without even explaining to ANYONE why? This should never happen. I, as a ref, would never ever do this without at least explaining why I'm throwing out the entire sideline. This is just begging for escalation from a sideline and something I would be fearful of if I ever did this. This is probably why the ref asked for a security escort to his car. As a ref, if I'm asking for security to escort me off the field, maybe I did something wrong? Nothing happened in this case as the ref parked right next to my car and we did not say a word to him as he walked by. That was the right thing to do. And I've warned many parents on the sideline that continuously scream at me because they think little suzie is getting fouled. I calmly stop the game, talk the parent/coach in question and have had 0% problem with parents afterwards. That is how a real ref handles problematic parents/coaches. So, please stop with the "the ref can kick anyone out and not think twice or warn" comments. That is not reality.

 

[soccer dude]

Did the kids get to continue playing?

Will the parents think twice about yelling at a ref next time?

Seems like you're having issues with unwritten rules that a ref needs to stop twice, look left, provide multiple warnings, talk to another ref, etc etc etc before making the call to eject parents.

Yes, to everything you said. If you read what I said, I only asked for 1 warning. Parents deserve that at least. Otherwise, you're asking for a meeting in the parking lot after, something I would never want as a ref.

 

[soccer dude]

Girls D5 game yesterday where the home team’s fans were making racial comments related to COVID pandemic to opposing team’s Asian players. Ref stopped the game and talked to the home coach, but eventually let the game play on. Home team won in 2nd half OT on golden goal rule, but there was nothing done to the home fans. The worst part about this was that it was some of the HS boys, and not one single adult on that side stopped them or attempted to shut them up. I’m guessing the adults in the stands are parents and maybe teachers, staff, faculty. NOT ONE WORD!!! This is happening to a teenage girl!!! Reprehensible and disgusting!!!

Ref should have warned the coach/parents and then yellow card the coach with a warning to the fans, then eject the entire sideline if it continues.

 

[Grace T.]

I agree with this and as I said above, none of this happened. I again agree that yelling at the ref should not happen. But how can a ref eject 200 parents without even explaining to ANYONE why? This should never happen. I, as a ref, would never ever do this without at least explaining why I'm throwing out the entire sideline. This is just begging for escalation from a sideline and something I would be fearful of if I ever did this. This is probably why the ref asked for a security escort to his car. As a ref, if I'm asking for security to escort me off the field, maybe I did something wrong? Nothing happened in this case as the ref parked right next to my car and we did not say a word to him as he walked by. That was the right thing to do. And I've warned many parents on the sideline that continuously scream at me because they think little suzie is getting fouled. I calmly stop the game, talk the parent/coach in question and have had 0% problem with parents afterwards. That is how a real ref handles problematic parents/coaches. So, please stop with the "the ref can kick anyone out and not think twice or warn" comments. That is not reality.

The laws make the cr the absolute and arbitrary dictator of his her domain. It’s why some refs can allow shoving matches and others can eject players en mass for shirt pulling. It’s somewhat a flaw in the laws imho that the refs are given so much power without accountability. The ref absolutely can so this and it is well within the refs power to exercise discretion in such circumstances.

Now whether the ref SHOULD have done that is a separate question which is still hard to tell without details particularly what it was the coaches on both sidelines were doing.

@espola this is an example of the no true scot fallacy...or in this case the no true ref.

 

[Grace T.]

Yes, to everything you said. If you read what I said, I only asked for 1 warning. Parents deserve that at least. Otherwise, you're asking for a meeting in the parking lot after, something I would never want as a ref.

The ref might have judged a security escort (was it h/w home...their security is very good) was better than fans potentially throwing stuff or the players fans taking matters in their own hands. Ref can always call police after but a field melee is more problematic.

 

[nofoul]

I agree with Carlsbad7 that you are probably embellishing your Referee credentials. Perhaps you have officiated some recreational soccer matches in the past, but have you done decades of competitive soccer matches and are currently doing said matches?

That said, I will not dispute your perspective of what happened at this event. It would be disingenuous of me since I was not there, and each of us views events through our experiences.

Let me offer a different perspective about this, since I know the referee team that did this match. None of the Referees would ever side with a Coach's opinion about what his partner did or badmouth the Referee. That is not within the realm of their professionalism. If you were a true Referee, you should know this. Disagreements, if any, among officials are discussed among the Referee team and with no one else (except Assessors or Inspectors). After all, Referees have their perspectives too.

Your assertion that offenders ALWAYS need to be warned also shows that you have not gotten the the message spelled out in ongoing Referee training. That is, if the offense is severe enough, you can eject immediately.

There is nothing anywhere that says a Referee must consult with his A/Rs. If he, himself, has witnessed the offense with a high level of certainty, he can take action accordingly.

Because you didn't hear or witness the offense doesn't mean the Referee did not.

But, to be honest with you, I do wonder why there weren't any school administrators present to handle this incident. Especially since this was a pretty significant game. When I was threatened by a visiting parent at a regular high school game, the visiting team administrator was all over this incident even before the game had ended.

 

[soccer dude]

I agree with Carlsbad7 that you are probably embellishing your Referee credentials. Perhaps you have officiated some recreational soccer matches in the past, but have you done decades of competitive soccer matches and are currently doing said matches?

That said, I will not dispute your perspective of what happened at this event. It would be disingenuous of me since I was not there, and each of us views events through our experiences.

Let me offer a different perspective about this, since I know the referee team that did this match. None of the Referees would ever side with a Coach's opinion about what his partner did or badmouth the Referee. That is not within the realm of their professionalism. If you were a true Referee, you should know this. Disagreements, if any, among officials are discussed among the Referee team and with no one else (except Assessors or Inspectors). After all, Referees have their perspectives too.

Your assertion that offenders ALWAYS need to be warned also shows that you have not gotten the the message spelled out in ongoing Referee training. That is, if the offense is severe enough, you can eject immediately.

There is nothing anywhere that says a Referee must consult with his A/Rs. If he, himself, has witnessed the offense with a high level of certainty, he can take action accordingly.

Because you didn't hear or witness the offense doesn't mean the Referee did not.

But, to be honest with you, I do wonder why there weren't any school administrators present to handle this incident. Especially since this was a pretty significant game. When I was threatened by a visiting parent at a regular high school game, the visiting team administrator was all over this incident even before the game had ended.

I like your assessment but I still have to ask. How many times have you (in all of your infinite wisdom) thrown out an entire sideline of 200+ parents with no warning? Still my point. You are right in that a ref can do whatever he/she wants to but that doesn't make it right? So, let me ask for the 10th time. Have you ever done this, and even more important, what do you think the fan response would be if you did? I never bow down to parents but you want to have good sideline presence so that you don't get jumped in the parking lot either. To me, a good ref is one who controls the game and never lets it get out of control like ours did. The right response would have been to have the coach calm the parents or else throw them out. You have to agree with that at least. Here's a nice video of us getting thrown out and some feedback.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1396271190197501954

 

[soccer dude]

I do like what you said about field monitors. That would be helpful. I'm not saying our sideline needed it because I know our parents and a few say things a bit harsh (which I don't like) but that would have been better than jumping to the conclusion that was made. I will say the ref did a good job during the game, just not in the ejection.