Best reply on this thread. Agree 100% on your comments for both film clips.
Is this considered a foul in youth soccer?
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Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
Grace is correct, it is indeed technically a foul. I was surprised when watching the game that the referee didn't give a foul to be honest.It was technically a foul. It was either a push or a charge, not shoulder to shoulder, with his arm slightly up and against the back. It arguably falls under the definition of careless: "shows a lack of consideration or attention when making the challenge", so it's a very wide and ambiguous definition which can catch a lot and therefore this action was within the scope of Law 12.
But that's not the end of the analysis. You then have to consider the "trifling" standard, which doesn't appear in the laws of the game and sometimes (and sometimes not) appears in the guidance to referees. Was it sufficiently trifling that calling it would impact the flow of the game since we want to discourage constant whistles?
There are different schools of thought on the trifling standard, and very broadly at the youth level (yeah, it's a total oversimplication) there are basically two poles or school of referees. The let em play" school which believes the trifling standard should be very broad and the game should only very rarely be interrupted (since it is a contact sport). And the "rules" school which believes in the letter of the law of the laws of the game. There is no agreement out there over how broad that trifling standard should be and indeed it varies from ref to ref and individual refs may call things differently (e.g., very loose on technical fouls on a throw in but rigidly punishing the keeper if he comes out with a knee up). It may also depend on the level of play (whistle everything for AYSO rec, whistle nothing for gold level games) but that's also not always true as I've seen AYSO refs who surprisingly let everything slide.
As to the foul in question, well that's why players dive in soccer. Because it makes it clear to the referee that the situation is not just "trifling" but sufficient force to send the player down. If Mendy had gone down, the referee may have called a foul, therefore Mendy did something stupid and is responsible for that goal, at least as the laws are currently [brokenly] structured.
Why do soccer players dive? Wolves' controversial equalizer vs. Man City is Exhibit A
Manchester City's Benjamin Mendy chose not to dive when he could have. The decision cost his team points against Wolves.sports.yahoo.com
That's why winning coaches (in addition to high knees....winners always do high knees) should as part of his coaching curriculum teach proper diving technique
Some of the reactions and general lack of understanding of the application of the LOTG on this thread (and many others) is a good example of why so many coaches and parents criticize referees...they are calling (or not) for something they really do not understand.
The point about Mendy going down and 'selling' the foul was very true. Had he gone down, it would have definitely been given as a foul. It was a clear charge in the back; sure, Adama wanted to win the ball but he did so by fouling Mendy, no question about that.
Do young players need to learn how to 'sell' a foul? Yes, IMO they do. Many referees will not award a foul if you do not go down and so by staying on your feet (even if you are doing it honorably) you are putting yourself at a clear disadvantage with your opponent. I'm not advocating diving btw; just ensuring fouls are given by making up the referees' mind for him/her.
I can't say I always agree with Grace but in this instance her post and explanation is spot on.
I agree we should tear up the book. It's hopeless broken. Handball rule....offsides...a throw in rule no one ever enforces. In particular, I resent those lines that prohibit my son from handling the ball outside the PA. He works hard on his catching. If he catches one, I frankly don't see why he can't just run up to his opposite goalkeeper and try to throw it in there. GK wars in particular are exciting without those field players getting in the way.
BTW, color me shocked...when did I become more "let em play" than Tea and Biscuits?
Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
oh and quickly in reference to the youth video clip. Yes, it should have been given as a foul.
If you are a robot and only consider the LOTG, you perhaps don't give a foul. A player may be fairly charged by an opponent if the ball is within playing distance, which it was (the usual application of this is shoulder-to-shoulder, not a charge from behind like Adama).
If you are not a robot and you consider the LOTG and the 'spirit' of the game, it is a foul because the player is overly (and unnecessarily) aggressive and careless in her attempts to intentionally knock the opponent down with no regard for actually winning the ball. Referee discretion comes into play in terms of the application of the LOTG.
No yellow card needed; 10-second explanation to the player on what she can do to avoid giving a foul away next time. Easy one IMO.
If you are a robot and only consider the LOTG, you perhaps don't give a foul. A player may be fairly charged by an opponent if the ball is within playing distance, which it was (the usual application of this is shoulder-to-shoulder, not a charge from behind like Adama).
If you are not a robot and you consider the LOTG and the 'spirit' of the game, it is a foul because the player is overly (and unnecessarily) aggressive and careless in her attempts to intentionally knock the opponent down with no regard for actually winning the ball. Referee discretion comes into play in terms of the application of the LOTG.
No yellow card needed; 10-second explanation to the player on what she can do to avoid giving a foul away next time. Easy one IMO.
So are you saying it’s a foul in U10-U11 but not a foul in DA, ECNL, CRL???
Tim Powell
SILVER ELITE
That can happen and the LOTG and referee training do consider age and skill level.
Gotcha! I’ve seen some really physical girls in g2010 in that exact scenario so that’s why I don’t think that’s a foul. I actually think kids would step their level play up instead of retaliation like someone else mentioned but that’s just my opinion.
Tim Powell
SILVER ELITE
It takes a bit to get your head around it at first. I am no expert. I didn’t play as a kid. I learned the game with my kid by coaching and refereeing at recreational levels before I handed her off to people who actually knew what they were doing. I probably refereed a few dozen games at pretty young age levels.
One of the most key phrases used in the LOTG is “in the opinion of the referee.” That’s how you can have different calls made in different situations and have them actually both applying the laws of the game correctly. There’s latitude when it comes the players’ age/skill and interpreting widely defined terms like careless (ordinary foul), reckless (warning/yellow card), and excessive force (red/send-off).
That’s why it’s best to give the referees a little bit of a break if you see them making a call you don’t necessarily agree with but they are otherwise trying to keep the game fair and the players safe, especially younger players. At recreational levels, they are all volunteers. In club, they do get paid, but not very much and there is an increasing shortage due to abuse.
When something egregious happens, it’s hard to resist the temptation to say something and it gets the best of a lot of otherwise cool headed people. Just don’t be the parent yelling the word “offsides” – as a referee will immediately know you have no idea what you’re talking about. American football = offsides; Soccer = offside.
Focusing on the bolded section in your response above. Are you speaking about Jimenez vs Mendy clip comments?
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Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
Adama vs Mendy, yeah.
So, you don’t think those (like me) don’t know the LOTG because our opinion differed?
Paul Spacey
SILVER ELITE
I’m not referring to any specific individuals, just a general population of parents/coaches who either don’t understand the LOTG or for those who do, many don’t understand their application and context.
We all have different, subjective viewpoints based on our experience and knowledge. You may have a better understanding than most and if that’s the case, congrats.
We all have different, subjective viewpoints based on our experience and knowledge. You may have a better understanding than most and if that’s the case, congrats.
My only gripe is consistency! If it’s allowed in the higher levels then allow it all across the board because it makes a naturally aggressive kid timid. Then coaches have to teach them how to be physical and aggressive again when they reach the higher level. LOTG seems open to interpretation so it’s in the eye of the beholder “ref”.
rainbow_unicorn
PREMIER
I disagree. Young players should not focus on learning how to sell a foul...they can learn how to do that when they are older (if they choose to do so). There are so many more important things young players should be working on...balance, strength, anticipating tackles, etc. I've seen youngers try to sell fouls and it looks ridiculous.
I’ve seen some kids that are really good at selling it but they’ve mostly been boys.
Or be clear about it as part of league rules. We already have special rules about headers and bicycle kicks. The problem to the player is parents start yelling at 10 year olds for pushing and the 10 year old is confused because he is just doing what the pros do. So they know what they do is acceptable at pro level but at our ayso rec, it is disallowed as a special rule.
That’s how it starts. Then the kids form bad habits and just like that you got a timid kid! I’m not referring to the kids from the clip because they were both aggressive... just my opinion.
Tim Powell
SILVER ELITE
I’m not sure I subscribe to the view that just because a child is encouraged to play within some semblance of the LOTG that they can’t still be an aggressive, physical, tough player.
A push is really a foul no matter how you slice it. I think the issue with kids vs. the pros is that they generally push in a much more awkward and obvious manner. What I generally see are kids approaching a challenge with an extended arm because they haven’t learned how to tackle yet or they simply have been beat by a faster/more elusive player and that’s their only way to still make a play on it. A good coach can help an aggressive player craft their style so that they help the team either by proper challenges or at least being a little more crafty so they are in a more borderline situation - rather than needlessly give up possession or even goals on free kicks.
Some teams I see it’s their strategy to simply foul and rough up the other team. They know that over the course of the game probably only half will be called. It can work. I just prefer actual soccer myself and I tend to think that style isn’t very effective once the fields get bigger.
A push is really a foul no matter how you slice it. I think the issue with kids vs. the pros is that they generally push in a much more awkward and obvious manner. What I generally see are kids approaching a challenge with an extended arm because they haven’t learned how to tackle yet or they simply have been beat by a faster/more elusive player and that’s their only way to still make a play on it. A good coach can help an aggressive player craft their style so that they help the team either by proper challenges or at least being a little more crafty so they are in a more borderline situation - rather than needlessly give up possession or even goals on free kicks.
Some teams I see it’s their strategy to simply foul and rough up the other team. They know that over the course of the game probably only half will be called. It can work. I just prefer actual soccer myself and I tend to think that style isn’t very effective once the fields get bigger.
Great take Dad. I was at the game. Green team was playing up and was winning and it got a little physical from the older Beach girls. No foul called and the little goat continued to make her moves. No retaliation needed
P.S. Winning is the best form of retaliation IMHO....
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Tim Powell
SILVER ELITE
Agreed. I was somewhat mild in my recommendation to give refs a break. I actually believe parents shouldn’t be coaching players or interacting with the referees at all. That’s the coach’s job.Great take Dad. I was at the game. Green team was playing up and was winning and it got a little physical from the older Beach girls. No foul called and the little goat continued to make her moves. No retaliation needed
I get it if there’s a pretty obvious and dangerous foul and parents say something like “whoa!” - it’s almost a natural reaction when you see your kid or her friend get cheaply taken out.
Beyond that, further jawing at the referee I think does create optics our kids observe that prevent them for learning to handle adversity on their own....just like joysticking coaches/parents risk turning kids into robots who can’t make their own autonomous decisions on the field.