Is this considered a foul in youth soccer?

[Grace T.]

The rules are there for safety.

Sorry to hear about your son, and agree for the sentiment. Technical point (not a criticism), but the rules actually aren't there for safety. If they were, then FIFA would adopt separate rules for the game for youth, teenagers, adults and pros. But they don't. It leads to the arguments therefore about whether a ref should call an AYSO game tighter than a pro ref would call a pro game. And therefore the complaints (somewhat legimately) that kids need to be taught aggression as they move up the ladder.

The rules surrounding fouls actually have more to do early on with distinguishing association football (soccer, played with the foot) from rugby or gridiron football (played with the hands) in the late 19th century. In the earliest games, tackling was allowed. But as the game diverged from rugby the rules diverged as well. In 1871 there was a meeting of the clubs in England...those that wanted to play with their hands and tackle were outvoted and left to form the Ruby Union, while the others adopted the rules which started to resemble modern football. Incidentally, a lot of that is also where we get the careless standard...it's from old English law which generally assume if something happens (such as a player going down) someone must be at fault because in nature players don't typically fall down (the best modern analogy is car accidents...there's no such thing as "just an accident" typically someone being at fault)...but that led to constant whistles which led to the trifling bandaid being placed on top of it.

Nerd moment over. You may resume.

 

[sdb]

Sorry to hear about your son, and agree for the sentiment. Technical point (not a criticism), but the rules actually aren't there for safety.

Safety is actually one of the key tenets mentioned in the LOTG. From page 12 upfront in the 2018/2019 LOTG:


Although accidents occur, the Laws should make the game as safe as possible. This requires players to show respect for their opponents and referees should create a safe environment by dealing strongly with those whose play is too aggressive and dangerous. The Laws embody the unacceptability of unsafe play in their disciplinary phrases, e.g. ‘reckless challenge’ (caution = yellow card/ YC) and ‘endangering the safety of an opponent’ or ‘using excessive force’ (sending-off = red card/RC).

In the case of the youth charge, I would call it a foul 100% of the time. I would also give her a yellow for being reckless. In my view, refs should be calling a lot more of these and giving cards vs. less.

 

[Soccerhelper]

Not just point of view.

My son got a severe concussion on a play like the one in the video. Massive headaches and homeschooled for 27 months so far.

The rules are there for safety.

I have friend whose dd got kicked in the back of the leg because the other girl was mad she got beat on a play so when ref wasn't looking she went for it. The player in yellow in this video also has a broken wrist. Solid ref should have been a little concerned for her and others players safety before the match. Bubble wrap maybe? I will also say if someone pulled that stunt today on my baby I think she would find away to get back at her. Not dirty or anything like that. No, just a talk or two with a few choice words and then she would look to beat her and her team the rest of the game. What we don't want are big girls or guys who get all pissed off because their losing and they go kung-fu in the head or crazy ass slide tackle from behind is reckless and extreme;y dangerous. My dd was the smallest always before puberty and always got whacked by the big girls all because they got beat by her. So I always told her the best way to seek revenge is beat the opponent and win the game and when someone knocks your ass down or hits you or yells at you, that's when it's....................................



Fact Correction: I lied about what I told my dd if someone goes after you like that. I told her to retaliate and get even. I'm going to confess. It was Tad Bobak that taught her to seek revenge by winning. I re-read my statements and they were false and I need to give credit where credit is do.

 

[Grace T.]

Safety is actually one of the key tenets mentioned in the LOTG. From page 12 upfront in the 2018/2019 LOTG:


Although accidents occur, the Laws should make the game as safe as possible. This requires players to show respect for their opponents and referees should create a safe environment by dealing strongly with those whose play is too aggressive and dangerous. The Laws embody the unacceptability of unsafe play in their disciplinary phrases, e.g. ‘reckless challenge’ (caution = yellow card/ YC) and ‘endangering the safety of an opponent’ or ‘using excessive force’ (sending-off = red card/RC).

Rejoinder: 1) was talking about the careless standard (e.g., a foul exists v it does not exist), 2) historically the divergence in the standard relates to the divergence with rugby, not their desire to make the nascent game more safe (besides 19th century sports were much more dangerous in most comparison to their modern counterparts, which is surprising given how medical knowledge wasn't as advanced...our ancestors were made from sturdier/more reckless stuff [depending on your point of view]), 3) this parts just IMHO but I think the stuff about safety is largely lip service at least as far as the current rules go...if safety really was a priority they really would do something about the heading (not saying they should, just that if it was the main priority they would), and 4) the rest of your post seems to support my proposition in 3.

BTW, I agree that refs in socal are too slow and unwilling generally to show cards.

 

[sdb]

I appreciate your perspective and the context. I do agree with you that there’s probably more lip service on safety than action, and your point on heading does support that as well.

 

[Frank]

It also depends a bit on the tone of the game. If it is a physical game and the ref has control plays like the youth one may go uncalled. Not all ages and levels can handle a high level of physicality and the ref needs to adjust. Often when all you hear are the parents and the coach and players say nothing they are completely comfortable with the play/contact even when mommy isn’t.

 

[Tim Powell]

I think most people would consider that a foul, at least folks who have familiarity with the laws of the game. The next question is whether you have any affinity or desire to “root” for the Beach player in that scenario, even if you agree it’s a foul or a foul with a caution.

For me that is a hard “no.” I will stay what a lot of other people have said on this thread. I love the physical play. 1v1s where there’s body contact and leverage and movement in a fight for the ball - even with a kid falling down in the process - it is fun to watch that grit. Some bumping and grinding - love it. That kid in that video clip had zero intent of any kind other than sending the other girl to the ground in hard fashion. The ball or any type of advantage or opportunity for her team was a distant afterthought at best.

I don’t even care much about context here. Even if that was retaliation for the player in green doing the exact same thing a few minutes earlier, to me that is not proper soccer and that is something a referee absolutely needs to keep under control....even if they missed a previous call and it appears to be inconsistent. If you see escalating tensions, you need to get that stuff under control right away to prevent risk of serious injury.

There are ways of responding to dirty play and having your teammates‘ back in a craftier fashion that doesn’t risk creating a scenario where players can get seriously injured.

 

[LMULions]

Growing up as a fan of other sports, and learning to love soccer because of DD's participation, I completely agree with the comment that there are not enough fouls called in youth soccer. There should be more foul-calls in youth soccer, it would go a long way in teaching the kids what is/isn't acceptable play. As a ref, especially the newbie refs working at the Little's level, making yourself blow the whistle or raise the flag and call a foul is always the most difficult part of learning to ref a sport.

And based on the individual game, I've always been a fan of the ref calling a close/questionable foul early on. Let everyone know that you're involved/engaged, that you're not going to hesitate to call a foul. And nothing wrong with allowing the game to become more physical over the course of the game but when you let stuff go early it sets the tone for the entire match.

 

[WillJohn]

Growing up as a fan of other sports, and learning to love soccer because of DD's participation, I completely agree with the comment that there are not enough fouls called in youth soccer. There should be more foul-calls in youth soccer, it would go a long way in teaching the kids what is/isn't acceptable play. As a ref, especially the newbie refs working at the Little's level, making yourself blow the whistle or raise the flag and call a foul is always the most difficult part of learning to ref a sport.

And based on the individual game, I've always been a fan of the ref calling a close/questionable foul early on. Let everyone know that you're involved/engaged, that you're not going to hesitate to call a foul. And nothing wrong with allowing the game to become more physical over the course of the game but when you let stuff go early it sets the tone for the entire match.

I agree. The ref has to set the tone of the game early to ensure it does not get out of hand. The kids will adjust to what the refs are calling. My DD plays U-little and almost all games are fine with good physical play but we play one team that fouls like crazy. Finally got an experienced ref and she was calling a foul on them every 2 minutes and warning them. Their parents yelling at the ref 'let them play' since they are used to doing it almost every game but ref doesn't back down and warns the sidelines she's about to kick them out and they shut up. Finally by the 2nd half, the fouling goes down to a minimum because they don't want to keep giving up free kicks and it's a normal game. Next time we play them again, we get another ref who doesn't want to call ANY fouls. Some of our parents yelling at ref that someone is going to get hurt since nothing is being called and sure enough other team's girl full on pushes our girl with 2 hands fully extended. She hits the ground, has to go ER, and dislocated her elbow and out for an extended time.

 

[watfly]

Growing up as a fan of other sports, and learning to love soccer because of DD's participation, I completely agree with the comment that there are not enough fouls called in youth soccer. There should be more foul-calls in youth soccer, it would go a long way in teaching the kids what is/isn't acceptable play. As a ref, especially the newbie refs working at the Little's level, making yourself blow the whistle or raise the flag and call a foul is always the most difficult part of learning to ref a sport.

And based on the individual game, I've always been a fan of the ref calling a close/questionable foul early on. Let everyone know that you're involved/engaged, that you're not going to hesitate to call a foul. And nothing wrong with allowing the game to become more physical over the course of the game but when you let stuff go early it sets the tone for the entire match.

I'm not sure I want refs calling more fouls across the board. While there are a few refs that allow games to get out of control, its fairly rare. Maybe issue more cards where warranted, but not more fouls (I can't tell you how many uncarded punches I've seen). I think communication can be a good tool to control player behavior while not slowing the game down. Granted managing the game with communication takes some experience.

My favorite games to watch are my kid's scrimmages against other clubs without referees. The coaches will call a foul on occasion, but its remarkable how well the players police and temper themselves without outside interference (although on occasion a knucklehead parent will want to ref from the sideline). The games flow nearly uninterrupted by foul calls despite physical play. Obviously there is less pressure in a scrimmage than a game that matters, so its a bit apples and oranges, but kids still want to win out of pride and bragging rights. It also helps that coaches are more chill. Its just really cool to see the kids playing with freedom in a game that flows.

My kid played in a tournament in Europe a couple years ago. The amount of physical contact that was allowed would send most SoCal parents into orbit. I had trouble adjusting to it at first. Generally if you or your team retained possession, it wasn't a foul, almost like unlimited advantage. In speaking with the refs they were taught that the game was meant to be played by the players and not stopped by the refs.

I guess I'm in the "let them play" camp...within reason.

 

[dad4]

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It also depends a bit on the tone of the game. If it is a physical game and the ref has control plays like the youth one may go uncalled. Not all ages and levels can handle a high level of physicality and the ref needs to adjust. Often when all you hear are the parents and the coach and players say nothing they are completely comfortable with the play/contact even when mommy isn’t.

Correction: when the ref thinks he has control of the game. After all, the ref at the center of a dirty game is probably convinced he has it all under control.

Players say nothing because you can get a red card for dissent. That doesn't mean they like it. It just means they dont want to let their team down.

Of course, if your kid is the one who plays CM like a wrecking ball, you may be fine with it. It isn't your kid whose shins are covered in bruises, after all.

 

[Bri’s-DAD]

I'm not sure I want refs calling more fouls across the board. While there are a few refs that allow games to get out of control, its fairly rare. Maybe issue more cards where warranted, but not more fouls (I can't tell you how many uncarded punches I've seen). I think communication can be a good tool to control player behavior while not slowing the game down. Granted managing the game with communication takes some experience.

My favorite games to watch are my kid's scrimmages against other clubs without referees. The coaches will call a foul on occasion, but its remarkable how well the players police and temper themselves without outside interference (although on occasion a knucklehead parent will want to ref from the sideline). The games flow nearly uninterrupted by foul calls despite physical play. Obviously there is less pressure in a scrimmage than a game that matters, so its a bit apples and oranges, but kids still want to win out of pride and bragging rights. It also helps that coaches are more chill. Its just really cool to see the kids playing with freedom in a game that flows.

My kid played in a tournament in Europe a couple years ago. The amount of physical contact that was allowed would send most SoCal parents into orbit. I had trouble adjusting to it at first. Generally if you or your team retained possession, it wasn't a foul, almost like unlimited advantage. In speaking with the refs they were taught that the game was meant to be played by the players and not stopped by the refs.

I guess I'm in the "let them play" camp...within reason.

If you’ve ever taken your kid to a play some pick up games where there’s no refs... You’d be amazed at how much they actually know! My kid is 9 and I’ve seen them call their own fouls, make their own possession calls, argue over possession, argue hand balls and so on.
They’ll call some ticky tack stuff on each other but they always respect each other’s call. Most times they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong but they’re out there policing themselves with no outside influence. Those games have every type of player... physical, technical, skiller, flopper lol. Those games imo are the ones I like watching the most.

 

[watfly]

Of course, if your kid is the one who plays CM like a wrecking ball, you may be fine with it. It isn't your kid whose shins are covered in bruises, after all.

I'm surprised no one has called CPS after seeing my son's body. He is usually on the short-end of the stick when it comes to physical play. He barely charts for weight for his age. Just because he ends up on his backside from a bigger player doesn't necessarily mean there is a foul, often times it isn't. He has had to adjust so he gets lower now and uses his own little tricks to be physical.

BTW, I absolutely believe that the charge by girl in the video is a foul. That was unreasonable physical force.

If you’ve ever taken your kid to a play some pick up games where there’s no refs... You’d be amazed at how much they actually know! My kid is 9 and I’ve seen them call their own fouls, make their own possession calls, argue over possession, argue hand balls and so on.
They’ll call some ticky tack stuff on each other but they always respect each other’s call. Most times they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong but they’re out there policing themselves with no outside influence. Those games have every type of player... physical, technical, skiller, flopper lol. Those games imo are the ones I like watching the most.

Not being joysticked by a coach helps also.

 

[Frank]

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Correction: when the ref thinks he has control of the game. After all, the ref at the center of a dirty game is probably convinced he has it all under control.

Players say nothing because you can get a red card for dissent. That doesn't mean they like it. It just means they dont want to let their team down.

Of course, if your kid is the one who plays CM like a wrecking ball, you may be fine with it. It isn't your kid whose shins are covered in bruises, after all.

Having control is a fragile edge and experienced refs can keep it on the correct side. For a player, asking questions in a calm and respectful manner to a ref does not get you a red card. Saying something like "Bro that call sucked would get dealt with"

At all ages a players capability in dealing/competing with physicality is always higher that mommy or daddy on the sidelines. Dirty should always be dealt with., however physicality has its place as its a contact sport.

 

[mlx]

As a referee I am calling that a foul 100% of the time.

Then you are a referee who knows NOTHING whatsoever about football. That is NOT a foul anywhere.

 

[The Outlaw *BANNED*]

Then you are a referee who knows NOTHING whatsoever about football. That is NOT a foul anywhere.

How can you say that's not a foul anywhere? The girl runs directly at her, throws a hip check for the sole purpose of knocking her off the play and makes zero attempt at the ball? I watch a lot of soccer... including PAC12 soccer... and see that called all the time. It's not even shoulder to shoulder.

 

[Frank]

How can you say that's not a foul anywhere? The girl runs directly at her, throws a hip check for the sole purpose of knocking her off the play and makes zero attempt at the ball? I watch a lot of soccer... including PAC12 soccer... and see that called all the time. It's not even shoulder to shoulder.

Not sure what I would have done real time but for the sake of discussion I’ll make the argument for no call.

1) Both players arrive largely at the same time chasing at 50/50 ball
2) yellow does give a strong shoulder, but it isn’t reckless or high in the head area. Also green does prepare herself to take and /or give her own level of contact.
3) there is a play of the ball it’s just with her back foot and not the lead foot.

just because the green player loses the battle of physicality does require it to be a foul.

at the adult or college level I wouldn’t call this. High school age level depends on type of game and skill levels. Younger youth levels likely gets a call

 

[Grace T.]

Not sure what I would have done real time but for the sake of discussion I’ll make the argument for no call.

A lot of the outcome of the call, without the benefit of VAR, would also depend on the location of the ref and the angle of view. They are close enough to the ball that from a certain angle it might look like an attempt to play the ball and from a certain angle it might look like an obvious charge. And the entire thing happens in a split second. If you slow it down enough down, though you'll also see the yellow player commits a potential secondary tripping foul which occurs before the ball is played as well.

If the ref doesn't have a clear view and isn't focused on that exact spot at that minute, a let em play ref will just default to both players trying to occupying the same place and maybe yellow got to the ball so let em play. A rules ref will give the green player the benefit of the doubt given he/she didn't see the ball played. The size of the two players in comparison also shouldn't make a difference, but in practice at this age it sometimes does.

 

[Grace T.]

A lot of the outcome of the call, without the benefit of VAR, would also depend on the location of the ref and the angle of view. They are close enough to the ball that from a certain angle it might look like an attempt to play the ball and from a certain angle it might look like an obvious charge. And the entire thing happens in a split second. If you slow it down enough down, though you'll also see the yellow player commits a potential secondary tripping foul which occurs before the ball is played as well.

If the ref doesn't have a clear view and isn't focused on that exact spot at that minute, a let em play ref will just default to both players trying to occupying the same place and maybe yellow got to the ball so let em play. A rules ref will give the green player the benefit of the doubt given he/she didn't see the ball played. The size of the two players in comparison also shouldn't make a difference, but in practice at this age it sometimes does.

Here's a funny ask for a charging foul in the first few minutes of the below clip. The white player runs at the GK and seems to run into the GK. The GK seems to raise a slight arm to block the charge. The white player is much smaller than the GK and goes down. In this case even though both players are entitled to their space, and even though the smaller player went down, the GK had possession of the ball, so no call, despite the ferocity of the collision, and despite the complaints from the side line.

 

[LMULions]

I think its funny its titled "Ref loses control of soccer match". I agree with your point, the GK didn't throw out his arm, he just put it up to defend himself - definitely not a foul.

On the other side of the play, I thought the goal should have been called back for offside. The guy who scores waits and tries to stay in a legal position but it appears to me he doesn't quite do it.