Academy vs. ECNL

[Striker17]

Its 7 spots per age group ony 14 girls will see play time each game, I'm figuring only 8 of the studs on the teams will not ride the bench and the rest will share some kind of game/bench rotation to try to keep them happy. And there are many Top tier teams in Socal that are full of studs besides ECNL teams. I understand the DA model is focused and evaluated on developement, but make no mistake , the coaches will be playing to win all games, this means fielding their best players all the time. Because the Club system has always been, "You have to win to keep the Talent coming to your club".....

You lost me- that's not the roster size I heard?
Also lets be real here just like now there will be parents who want their daughter on the DA who will have no issue with them never playing. We see it ALL the time. They will have no problem with them as 18-23 on a roster.
That's the group I am referring to. Not your 1-5 studs who will be fighting with the other 1-5 studs in the higher band BUT your 12-23 spot girls. From what I hear the clubs will be fielding it like an ECNL roster and max it out.
Using that logic, with now a massive increase in clubs than the previous ECNL model that talent pool is in fact diluted.
I have no doubt that there are tons of great players I just don't believe that there will be all "elite" players who will be on DA.
ECNL rosters are 23. We had limited options before now in my area we can easily go to six DA clubs that's a huge increase for us.

I do agree with you - there will be an emergence of a super team in SoCal but I think it will take time. Everyone I have talked to is excited about Beach because they don't have to commute, Pats because it's new etc. There are girls who come from Temecula who can now choose a Legends club.

• Roster maximum
  • U-13/14 team rosters must have a minimum of 16 full-time players and no more than 23 full-time players
  • Each club must have a minimum roster of 32 full-time players and no more than 46 full-time players at the U-15/16 and U-17/18 age groups combined
  • All players register directly with the U.S. Soccer Federatiion

 

[mbeach]

You lost me- that's not the roster size I heard?
Also lets be real here just like now there will be parents who want their daughter on the DA who will have no issue with them never playing. We see it ALL the time. They will have no problem with them as 18-23 on a roster.
That's the group I am referring to. Not your 1-5 studs who will be fighting with the other 1-5 studs in the higher band BUT your 12-23 spot girls. From what I hear the clubs will be fielding it like an ECNL roster and max it out.
Using that logic, with now a massive increase in clubs than the previous ECNL model that talent pool is in fact diluted.
I have no doubt that there are tons of great players I just don't believe that there will be all "elite" players who will be on DA.
ECNL rosters are 23. We had limited options before now in my area we can easily go to six DA clubs that's a huge increase for us.

I do agree with you - there will be an emergence of a super team in SoCal but I think it will take time. Everyone I have talked to is excited about Beach because they don't have to commute, Pats because it's new etc. There are girls who come from Temecula who can now choose a Legends club.

• Roster maximum
  • U-13/14 team rosters must have a minimum of 16 full-time players and no more than 23 full-time players
  • Each club must have a minimum roster of 32 full-time players and no more than 46 full-time players at the U-15/16 and U-17/18 age groups combined
  • All players register directly with the U.S. Soccer Federatiion

And I have also read from a US Soccer source (which I cannot find and reference now) that every player has to start a minimum of 25% games. So the bottom line is that playing time for everybody/anybody is not really a different issue from what is going on now. Everybody (especially PARENTS) wants to win every game, whether it is DA, ECNL, SCDSL, tournaments, etc. What I can see that will be different is that even a bigger premium will be placed in athletic players, or more exactly on players with stamina, because of the longer playing period without a break. But stamina is something that, unlike speed, can "easily" be acquired.
Regarding whether the rosters will be maxed out or not, it is difficult to tell. There are arguments to be made for both cases. I think that a few posts ago C.A.M., who gave great information associated with his experience in Boys DA, said that the rosters in her/his club were on the short side.

 

[BornToRun]

Since it looks like some parents read these posts to gather information, let's be precise about the substitution rules. Straight from the Girls DA application form:
"Game-day roster: 18 players and 5 technical staff members permitted on the bench and in the technical area"
"Substitution rules: no re-entry; seven substitutions across three “opportunities” for U-14/15; five substitutions across three “opportunities” for U-16/17 and U-18/19"

Does it specify if the age groups have to be "mixed" on game day? In other words, how many of the game day roster have to be olders vs youngers? Can you then start a game with 9 olders and 2 youngers? etc etc. And what about the play-ups?

I guess for me, after thinking about it for a while now-- it is the mixed age bands that I am seeing in my head as the biggest problem in all this. Leaves for no team continuity, (which I really do think is important for the girls) and leaves some children behind by seriously limiting their game time. How does this work on the boys' side? Do the coaches basically just start the top 11 and are they mostly olders and the occasional talented younger?

 

[mbeach]

Does it specify if the age groups have to be "mixed" on game day? In other words, how many of the game day roster have to be olders vs youngers? Can you then start a game with 9 olders and 2 youngers? etc etc. And what about the play-ups?

I guess for me, after thinking about it for a while now-- it is the mixed age bands that I am seeing in my head as the biggest problem in all this. Leaves for no team continuity, (which I really do think is important for the girls) and leaves some children behind by seriously limiting their game time. How does this work on the boys' side? Do the coaches basically just start the top 11 and are they mostly olders and the occasional talented younger?

From what I have read, there is not a rule stating that 50% of the players must be from each year group (whether in the team roster or game day roster), but the official documents do hint strongly that the rosters should be approximately 50%. I do not like this mixing either.

The documents describe a especial player figure, called "Development Player", which probably is partially designed for play-ups into the younger 14/15 group:
"A Development Player (DP) is a “bubble player” in any age group that trains with your GDA player pool, but is better suited playing games with a “second level” team from within the club (provided the club has full oversight and connection with this group, group operates out of same facility, and player does not come from an affiliate club)
• Registering a DP is a serious and careful decision that should be part of a planned opportunity for the player to get meaningful game experience in an Academy game
• Clubs can have a maximum of 10 DPs registered at a single time within their player pool; DPs may play in a maximum of 6 games and can later move to full-time, provided the club has roster moves and full-time roster space available"

In my opinion, a younger girl playing up into the 14/15 group can be physically dangerous. I have two girls, an 06 playing up 05, and an 03. Although my 06 could play up with 04s, I have noticed that the size difference between 04s and 03s is huge, and I doubt that any 05 can really play up with 03s. I think that 04s will struggle greatly playing with 03s, let alone 05s playing up into the 04/03 team. But as they get older playing up will be more feasible.

 

[NoGoal]

I posted this before, I was told by a buddy who's son plays Boys DA. Ueven players (younger) usually play less than the Uodd players (older) on the dual age teams.

 

[Striker17]

I posted this before, I was told by a buddy who's son plays Boys DA. Ueven players (younger) usually play less than the Uodd players (older) on the dual age teams.

Nephew is FC Dallas. They work a full roster and play to win. They fight for playing time. They do have a percentage of mandated playing time but I don't know how much it's enforced because all I am privy to is how much more difficult it is to "keep and retain a spot".
It is highly competitive but they also travel two hours to get there.

I also know it's the highly highly elite player that they play up. There is none of this dual roster to please mommy and daddy act or putting a "very good" player whose younger on an A team. They adhere to birth year unless it's a Mal Pugh type of situation.
I hope our girls DA does that because the "playing up" is getting laughable now.

 

[Striker17]

From what I have read, there is not a rule stating that 50% of the players must be from each year group (whether in the team roster or game day roster), but the official documents do hint strongly that the rosters should be approximately 50%. I do not like this mixing either.

The documents describe a especial player figure, called "Development Player", which probably is partially designed for play-ups into the younger 14/15 group:
"A Development Player (DP) is a “bubble player” in any age group that trains with your GDA player pool, but is better suited playing games with a “second level” team from within the club (provided the club has full oversight and connection with this group, group operates out of same facility, and player does not come from an affiliate club)
• Registering a DP is a serious and careful decision that should be part of a planned opportunity for the player to get meaningful game experience in an Academy game
• Clubs can have a maximum of 10 DPs registered at a single time within their player pool; DPs may play in a maximum of 6 games and can later move to full-time, provided the club has roster moves and full-time roster space available"

In my opinion, a younger girl playing up into the 14/15 group can be physically dangerous. I have two girls, an 06 playing up 05, and an 03. Although my 06 could play up with 04s, I have noticed that the size difference between 04s and 03s is huge, and I doubt that any 05 can really play up with 03s. I think that 04s will struggle greatly playing with 03s, let alone 05s playing up into the 04/03 team. But as they get older playing up will be more feasible.

I hope DP are limited to true age group bubble players or the actually elite younger. We all know the elite younger and it's about one per club maybe. Sorry but it's true - parents version of elite is a lot different than an objective coach.

 

[Real Deal]

From what I have read, there is not a rule stating that 50% of the players must be from each year group (whether in the team roster or game day roster), but the official documents do hint strongly that the rosters should be approximately 50%. I do not like this mixing either.

The documents describe a especial player figure, called "Development Player", which probably is partially designed for play-ups into the younger 14/15 group:
"A Development Player (DP) is a “bubble player” in any age group that trains with your GDA player pool, but is better suited playing games with a “second level” team from within the club (provided the club has full oversight and connection with this group, group operates out of same facility, and player does not come from an affiliate club)
• Registering a DP is a serious and careful decision that should be part of a planned opportunity for the player to get meaningful game experience in an Academy game
• Clubs can have a maximum of 10 DPs registered at a single time within their player pool; DPs may play in a maximum of 6 games and can later move to full-time, provided the club has roster moves and full-time roster space available"

In my opinion, a younger girl playing up into the 14/15 group can be physically dangerous. I have two girls, an 06 playing up 05, and an 03. Although my 06 could play up with 04s, I have noticed that the size difference between 04s and 03s is huge, and I doubt that any 05 can really play up with 03s. I think that 04s will struggle greatly playing with 03s, let alone 05s playing up into the 04/03 team. But as they get older playing up will be more feasible.

So just curious mbeach: you say no one should play up, but then you say your one daughter plays up now, on 05s-- so when 04/05 Academy rolls around you going to pull her back to 06s? Or are you one of those parents who thinks there daughter's the only one who should be playing up?
(Just kiddin' around, but is that yur plan?)

 

[Real Deal]

I hope DP are limited to true age group bubble players or the actually elite younger. We all know the elite younger and it's about one per club maybe. Sorry but it's true - parents version of elite is a lot different than an objective coach.

I think a player can be "future elite potential" (which is truly how they should refer to the younger age groups) ... and it can still not be in their best interest to play up all the time. It depends on mental, physical maturity, and whether the social part is important to them or not. It also may be that they are a great team leader in the making... but their growth in that area will be stunted by playing up... I mean seriously, what 12 year old is going to boss around a 14 year old???

 

[mbeach]

So just curious mbeach: you say no one should play up, but then you say your one daughter plays up now, on 05s-- so when 04/05 Academy rolls around you going to pull her back to 06s? Or are you one of those parents who thinks there daughter's the only one who should be playing up?
(Just kiddin' around, but is that yur plan?)

That is not what I said (and the post was quite clear). What I said is that in this particular age period, it is dangerous for a girl to play up two years. Obviously I will not let my girl do it out of safety concerns.

 

[Striker17]

So just curious mbeach: you say no one should play up, but then you say your one daughter plays up now, on 05s-- so when 04/05 Academy rolls around you going to pull her back to 06s? Or are you one of those parents who thinks there daughter's the only one who should be playing up?
(Just kiddin' around, but is that yur plan?)

I think it's case specific and I have DEFINETLY seen a very special 06 and a special 05. They are the type of players that "make" a team. They are rare though.
The clubs should not be playing the "my daughter is a great player 05" on an Academy team.
Just a humble opinion.

 

[Real Deal]

I think it's case specific and I have DEFINETLY seen a very special 06 and a special 05. They are the type of players that "make" a team. They are rare though.
The clubs should not be playing the "my daughter is a great player 05" on an Academy team.
Just a humble opinion.

Agreed. And i guess the question would be, will that player make the same kind of impact playing up 2 years on an Academy team?

The youngers who make the Academy team in a particular age band are playing up anyways! (as in-- the 04s in 03/04 age group Academy). What's the dang rush? Wish they had just mandated it that way.

 

[mbeach]

Agreed. And i guess the question would be, will that player make the same kind of impact playing up 2 years on an Academy team?

The youngers who make the Academy team in a particular age band are playing up anyways! (as in-- the 04s in 03/04 age group Academy). What's the dang rush? Wish they had just mandated it that way.

That is right, playing up in these teams actually means playing up 2 years. Maybe possible when older, but very unsafe at 12 vs 14 when playing to win and the older girl lowers the shoulder in a charge at full speed.

 

[Striker17]

I think a player can be "future elite potential" (which is truly how they should refer to the younger age groups) ... and it can still not be in their best interest to play up all the time. It depends on mental, physical maturity, and whether the social part is important to them or not. It also may be that they are a great team leader in the making... but their growth in that area will be stunted by playing up... I mean seriously, what 12 year old is going to boss around a 14 year old???

What I have seen in regards to this exact scenario is it was more of a way to feed a parents ego and keep a talented girl at a club.
The studs will choose, then the younger "elites" will shop for someone to take them. It's already happening.
Again I am all for the truly elite player - and many people can see who that usually is on a team.
When I initially started this thread my whole point was that I do believe that the "bubble" a team players or bench players at current teams will shop to be starters at another Club.
For example if you haven't "broken through" at Surf or Blues or Slammers why wouldn't you drive up to Carlsbad or Pats and give it a go? That's what I am hearing .
I think the clubs are expecting those 11-20 girls per age to stay and make up their ECNL team and don't get that the great migration is already on.
Maybe because of more options we will see an increase in club loyalty and developing the bubble and B teams.
I can't even type that with a straight face

 

[Striker17]

Agreed. And i guess the question would be, will that player make the same kind of impact playing up 2 years on an Academy team?

The youngers who make the Academy team in a particular age band are playing up anyways! (as in-- the 04s in 03/04 age group Academy). What's the dang rush? Wish they had just mandated it that way.

Parental ego. Plain and simply.

 

[Zerodenero]

Parental ego. Plain and simply.

There's argument for it at the u-little ages but past U15, no value add in it.

 

[mbeach]

What I have seen in regards to this exact scenario is it was more of a way to feed a parents ego and keep a talented girl at a club.
The studs will choose, then the younger "elites" will shop for someone to take them. It's already happening.
Again I am all for the truly elite player - and many people can see who that usually is on a team.
When I initially started this thread my whole point was that I do believe that the "bubble" a team players or bench players at current teams will shop to be starters at another Club.
For example if you haven't "broken through" at Surf or Blues or Slammers why wouldn't you drive up to Carlsbad or Pats and give it a go? That's what I am hearing .
I think the clubs are expecting those 11-20 girls per age to stay and make up their ECNL team and don't get that the great migration is already on.
Maybe because of more options we will see an increase in club loyalty and developing the bubble and B teams.
I can't even type that with a straight face

This is just my two cents. Regarding the 11-20 girls per age group that you are referring to, it seems to me that it is in their best interest to tryout for DA teams in different clubs. And it is clear that they will have more opportunities with DA clubs that have a lesser record with girls. My observation is that clubs have zero loyalty to their players, so there is no need to reciprocate.
Since we are talking about club loyalty to its players, I will go back to a point of discussion that we had a few months ago when we began talking about GDA: how clubs would fund the subsidy to DA families. The more likely way is to increase the fees to all other families in the club, which would be easier to do for very big clubs (please, DA opponents, do not use this to go back into the same old discussion, the increase for big clubs was not that much and it would be too boring again). But how could clubs sell this to the majority of their families? My idea was that the smart clubs would guarantee/advertise that a high percentage of DA positions (not all, but a high percentage) would be filled with girls that had been developed X years in the club. What a better way to advertise club loyalty, and to make sure that the club truly develops players? I have not seen this advertised by any club, and in fact I believe that clubs will take the best 20 girls for their DA teams, regardless of where they come.

 

[Zerodenero]

That is right, playing up in these teams actually means playing up 2 years. Maybe possible when older, but very unsafe at 12 vs 14 when playing to win and the older girl lowers the shoulder in a charge at full speed.

Totally agree. Unless she's one of the special ones .....I've witnessed it hinder growth/opportunity rather than foster.

 

[MakeAPlay]

Its 7 spots per age group ony 14 girls will see play time each game, I'm figuring only 8 of the studs on the teams will not ride the bench and the rest will share some kind of game/bench rotation to try to keep them happy. And there are many Top tier teams in Socal that are full of studs besides ECNL teams. I understand the DA model is focused and evaluated on developement, but make no mistake , the coaches will be playing to win all games, this means fielding their best players all the time. Because the Club system has always been, "You have to win to keep the Talent coming to your club".....

With all due respect, I have not in 10 years of watching club soccer seen a team other than a YNT that are full of studs. Not ECNL, not ODP, not PDP. The truth is that per age group there are probably 20-25 top tier players and about half of them might be studs and maybe 5 of them actually are.

 

[MakeAPlay]

And I have also read from a US Soccer source (which I cannot find and reference now) that every player has to start a minimum of 25% games. So the bottom line is that playing time for everybody/anybody is not really a different issue from what is going on now. Everybody (especially PARENTS) wants to win every game, whether it is DA, ECNL, SCDSL, tournaments, etc. What I can see that will be different is that even a bigger premium will be placed in athletic players, or more exactly on players with stamina, because of the longer playing period without a break. But stamina is something that, unlike speed, can "easily" be acquired.
Regarding whether the rosters will be maxed out or not, it is difficult to tell. There are arguments to be made for both cases. I think that a few posts ago C.A.M., who gave great information associated with his experience in Boys DA, said that the rosters in her/his club were on the short side.

The quote that you are referencing had to do with the Boys DA. I have not seen a PT mandate from the GDA.