No one is forcing anyone to participate, it's called freedom of choice and choices have consequences. If you choose to participate and get sick, don't try to sue someone else for your choices. If you do you're playing the victim card. It's not that complicated. (Yes, I understand you think you know what is best for everyone, but most people would like to make their own choices). As of right now its perfectly legal to host a soccer tournament in Utah. Your claim that its willful misconduct is just more fear mongering.
Lets Drive to Utah on a Holiday Weekend to play teams from California
- Thread starter timbuck
- Start date
What about grandma? She was minding her own business until little Sally brought C19 home from Utah and killed her. In hindsight, she probably should have stayed in the rest home, although Sally also gave it to her teammate, who gave it to her mom who works at the same rest home. Probably would have died regardless of where she was staying since, well, Americans are dumb and selfish.
kickingandscreaming
PREMIER
IKR, as you stated, if only we could be like NY ... where grandma is already dead.
I appreciate the entertainment value of your mythical and small minded scenarios.
Like the protests?
Of course the protests were a bad idea that spread the virus.
Are we talking about the BLM protests or the anti-shutdown protests? They kind of look the same to me.....
There's that irony again that certain people are oblivious to. I'd say they know who they are, but obviously they don't and I don't want to mention them by name since there is a small chance they would figure out their own ironies and we'd lose that entertainment value.
Did I put a tilte in which protest? No....wanna know why? CAUSE IT DOESN’T MATTER!!!
How about the seasonal flu? Kids risks with this virus is higher.
I might be losing my mind and this is going to be a super unpopular opinion, but based upon what I've read I'm beginning to think that the protests weren't a significant cause of spreading the virus.
So you’re saying larger, outdoor gatherings with no social distancing, mixed mask usage and lots of yelling doesn’t show significant cause of spread.....ahh the things that make you say, hmmmm!
I know crazy! It defies common sense and I'm all about common sense.
Sure. NY has as many people over the age of 55 as Phoenix has people.
I know you think you’ve got a cute little zinger, but anyone who knows anything understands that your narrative is a crock of s**t. Everyone knows C19 landed and started spreading like crazy in NYC before anyone knew it was there, let alone how it spreads, how best to treat it and even how susceptible people in different groups are to it. Despite not knowing much of anything about it, cases in NY peaked a little more than two weeks after it even learned it was going to be a real problem, and has been dropping ever since. NY is losing about 6 people a day in the entire state.
States like AZ, TX, CA and FL have no excuse. Even if NY had botched everything about C19, which it did not, the states that are currently failing miserably have no excuse for failing to learn a god-damned thing. They have citizens like you who point to NY not as a guide for how to prevent spread and save lives, but instead to rationalize killing more people. Like I keep saying, Americans are dumbs**ts. The world is laughing at you. You can’t travel out of the country. You can’t even travel to NY without quarantining 14 days because they know who the real idiots are.
RayClemence
BRONZE
A few responses to some of your comments:
Are the indemnifications and waivers enforceable? Maybe yes and maybe no. Depends on so many legal factors. But that doesn’t stop people from filing a lawsuit or making a claim. The enforceability gets “discussed” after the claim or lawsuit has started.
Is the COVID based clause that much different than the same waiver used for other risks associated with playing? The biggest differences are: (i) it includes an indemnification provision which regular waiver forms do not have, and (ii) parents/players usually do not have to sign such a waiver/indemnification form when they play in regular tournaments pre-Covid. This means that anything you do at this event (even if unrelated to Covid, such as an injury) could carry greater legal consequences. This is why I was so gobsmacked by these forms.
The "willful misconduct" is having a large group gathering in the middle of a pandemic. That's beside the point, though-- either you are free to initiate legal action, or you aren't. This is the point. In this country, anyone is free to initiate legal action for any reason if he/she feels aggrieved.
No one is forcing anyone to participate, it's called freedom of choice and choices have consequences. If you choose to participate and get sick, don't try to sue someone else for your choices. I agree 100% with this comment, but the reality is that when someone gets sick, and they see an opportunity to make a claim that might net them some cash, why wouldn’t they do it? In many ways, having an indemnification provision exacerbates the problem as it provides a motivation or reason for people to pursue a claim that they normally wouldn’t have. In a normal situation, a person may not bother to pursue a claim against a club or player as there is no indemnification provision (i.e., there are a limited number of people/entities that can be sued), but when I know that I have an entire roster of players and the coach and the team manager obligated to indemnify, that is a lot more pockets that I can pick from.
Are the indemnifications and waivers enforceable? Maybe yes and maybe no. Depends on so many legal factors. But that doesn’t stop people from filing a lawsuit or making a claim. The enforceability gets “discussed” after the claim or lawsuit has started.
Is the COVID based clause that much different than the same waiver used for other risks associated with playing? The biggest differences are: (i) it includes an indemnification provision which regular waiver forms do not have, and (ii) parents/players usually do not have to sign such a waiver/indemnification form when they play in regular tournaments pre-Covid. This means that anything you do at this event (even if unrelated to Covid, such as an injury) could carry greater legal consequences. This is why I was so gobsmacked by these forms.
The "willful misconduct" is having a large group gathering in the middle of a pandemic. That's beside the point, though-- either you are free to initiate legal action, or you aren't. This is the point. In this country, anyone is free to initiate legal action for any reason if he/she feels aggrieved.
No one is forcing anyone to participate, it's called freedom of choice and choices have consequences. If you choose to participate and get sick, don't try to sue someone else for your choices. I agree 100% with this comment, but the reality is that when someone gets sick, and they see an opportunity to make a claim that might net them some cash, why wouldn’t they do it? In many ways, having an indemnification provision exacerbates the problem as it provides a motivation or reason for people to pursue a claim that they normally wouldn’t have. In a normal situation, a person may not bother to pursue a claim against a club or player as there is no indemnification provision (i.e., there are a limited number of people/entities that can be sued), but when I know that I have an entire roster of players and the coach and the team manager obligated to indemnify, that is a lot more pockets that I can pick from.
Desert Hound
DA
Game. Set. Match.
6-0, 6-0, 6-0
If everyone played by the rules and were gracious when they got their asses kicked, then we wouldn't need all the lawyers messing everything up to figure out who the real winner is and who is telling the truth the most. Remember, no one is 100% right. Some good pick pocket folks out there. How do you know if the Covid spreader didnt catch the virus at da beach first from someone else and then they brought it to the field who then took it home to grandma and the she died. How in the hell are you going to prove this Mr lawyer? This is starting to sound like extortion and blackmail BS!!! 600 lawyers on one side and 900 on the other side. Losers!!!!!
Remember, there is a choice with seasonal flu, vaccinate or not vaccinate. Seasonal flu is not nearly as contagious. With seasonal flu you are contagious when you have symptoms. Not too many players when they have 102, or 103 temp and their body is hurting all over, want to play in a soccer game, so less opportunity to spread it. Covid-19 you can be contagious with no symptoms. So plenty of opportunities to spread it.
Is it really less contagious or is it just that more people have built up immunity?
RayClemence
BRONZE
How do you know if the Covid spreader didnt catch the virus at da beach first from someone else and then they brought it to the field who then took it home to grandma and the she died. How in the hell are you going to prove this Mr lawyer? This is starting to sound like extortion and blackmail BS!!! 600 lawyers on one side and 900 on the other side. Losers!!!!!
You are correct. For these Covid cases, it will be almost impossible to prove "causation". A player could have caught the virus at a restaurant in Utah, or almost anywhere else. But the key point is that this won't stop people from pursuing claims that are difficult to prove. It happens everyday, and in many ways, the litigation "business" often is more about "legal extortion" than anything else. People file lawsuits where they know that they have a weak (or sometimes no) case but where they feel that the defendant would rather pay them to settle instead of spending more money on paying lawyers to defend you. My point is that these waiver/indemnification forms are actually opening the door for more claims and potential litigation. Parents and coaches sign these forms not really understanding the real implications behind them. In fact, I doubt if these tournament organizers themselves understand all the implications. They only know that they need "maximum protection" and get their lawyers to send them these "over-lawyered" forms.
I coach a team, and I have been thinking about whether I would allow my team to play in a tournament which requires an indemnification. Waivers are OK for me, but asking a coach and parents to indemnify is a completely different proposition. It would be interesting if Calsouth, SCDSL or CSL asks for an indemnification. Would anyone be willing to sign an indemnification?
You are correct. For these Covid cases, it will be almost impossible to prove "causation". A player could have caught the virus at a restaurant in Utah, or almost anywhere else. But the key point is that this won't stop people from pursuing claims that are difficult to prove. It happens everyday, and in many ways, the litigation "business" often is more about "legal extortion" than anything else. People file lawsuits where they know that they have a weak (or sometimes no) case but where they feel that the defendant would rather pay them to settle instead of spending more money on paying lawyers to defend you. My point is that these waiver/indemnification forms are actually opening the door for more claims and potential litigation. Parents and coaches sign these forms not really understanding the real implications behind them. In fact, I doubt if these tournament organizers themselves understand all the implications. They only know that they need "maximum protection" and get their lawyers to send them these "over-lawyered" forms.
I coach a team, and I have been thinking about whether I would allow my team to play in a tournament which requires an indemnification. Waivers are OK for me, but asking a coach and parents to indemnify is a completely different proposition. It would be interesting if Calsouth, SCDSL or CSL asks for an indemnification. Would anyone be willing to sign an indemnification?
notintheface
GOLD
Congratulations on your strawman argument. Get back to the point.