No because it’s dependent on preferences and what type of formations and build up the coach wants to exercise. Yes it can vary such as for example if there’s a press or not. The soccer iq part comes in recognizing which situation they’ve been presented. But it’s all dependent on what the rest of the team is doing as well. That’s a coaching thing. It’s not up to the goalkeeper to set for example initial formation. if the coach hasn’t practiced it that’s on him. That’s also not something the gk coach can coach in the absence of cbs. One of the great flaws in us coaching, due in part to limited space even on the academy level, is that I’ve seen coaches spent not enough time on that.
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- Thread starter Ljohnso8
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We'll just agree to disagree. While there are certain preferences by certain coaches - those preferences tend to be consistent with how the coaches see the matchups, but generally during games - the decisions on our teams have always been for the goalies to decide based on what their scanning reveals and this all depends on what's available on the field. Maybe we're just lucky but we've always had coaches that worked on both scenarios, big passes and playing out back - all dependent on what's going on when the goalie scans the field. I can't imagine forcing it one way or another unless you're down and it's the final 15 minutes. Then there's only one way to go and that's as far as you can go!
I'm sorry that you've had coaches that don't allow your son to make decisions as a goalie based on what he sees on the field.
You are misunderstanding. The coaches set the parameters for how the team is supposed to play. That's the job of the coach, not the goalkeeper. The goalkeeper does not set those parameters (e.g. is it going to be generally a team that tries to build from the back or play more directly). That BTW, is entirely the reason why De Gea got replaced by Manchester United...because he could not execute the system the coach tried to install...even though he won the golden glove. That's an example of a GK, for both IQ and skills reasons, being unable to execute what the coach has asked of him. If the coach has decided to hand this all over to the goalkeeper to decide, they are doing it wrong. The coach's job is to coach, and the GK's job is to execute.
Example. Let's assume it's early in the game and the blue team needs to take a goalkick. For the sake of simplicity, the score is 0-0 and we are unsure if the red team is going to high press, low block, or anything in between. First coaching question is who takes the kick (unless you want the GK and CB to be arguing about it there....that's something the coach decides). Let's assume the GK is taking it. Second coaching question is what formation do you set up for a GK (that's again a coaching question as the GK isn't going to yell instructions for where each player is supposed to standing in this scenario...neither should the coach...the players should know going in based on instructions given before the match). For sake of simplicity let's assume a standard CB split on either side inside the box, RB/LB to the wing (again for simplicity they break free and are open), but the DM has been taken away, it's too far for the ball to be over the top since the red team spreads wide, and the center is pretty well marked. Let's assume the GK is a boy of 14 with a reasonably accurate long pass, who can get it to the 50 yards on the full football field, but not much farther. The GK has some choices: A. the GK can play it short to the CBS drawing in the press (if any) and playing a possession triangle, B. the GK can send it to the middle and ping one of his players (who may lose it into a 50/50 situation) to show the opposing side if you press I'm going to send it long so you better spread the field, or C. the GK can chip it in an aerial ball to the open RB/LB. Some coaches will prefer the short, because it draws in the press and the CBs can then pass an easily controlled pass to the RB/LB or go long into the space that's opened up or maybe to the DM who has freed up. Some coaches believe it's better to take away a level and go directly to the open RB/LB even if it is a harder to control aerial ball because they don't want there CBS to lose it that close to the goal. Some coaches believe it's better to spread the field in the initial goalkick, especially early when the opposing team might not be tired and will go full out on a hard press. There's no right answer here. These are all coaching, not GK, decisions. What is the system we are trying to play?
You have it somewhat backwards. Distribution is the area where the GK has the least control. The standard for judging the GK is whether the GK is living up to the directions the coach has given (if any). Shot stopping is something which is largely on the goalkeeper and which the coach has very little input. The standard is what bubble is the GK expected to control at that level and at that age. The sad part is very few coaches will ever spend a substantial part of their practice time on a full field (which most don't have) going over what to do with the various scenarios off a goalkick. That doesn't happen in Europe....it's one of the things they focus on...the default at the younger ages is possession to the CBs in order for the team to learn how to possess. I really think it's a function that even high level teams don't get very much by way of practice space, and you really need at least a full half field to go over this.
p.s. I'll take further and say something even more radical. If winning wasn't everything as it is under the US system, the US should take a page out of the European book and the answer should almost ALWAYS be short to the CB so that the team can learn to possess (certain exceptions for creativity excepted). It's why in the youngers game the manchester united v TFA u12 Mic game TFA was able to win. TFA was always high pressing, always looking for the counter. The manchester keeper routinely (certain exceptions) started with the pass to the CB. The manchester academy was looking to teach its players how to play, while TFA was looking for the upset win.
I think this takes away from the ability of the players to improve their soccer IQ, which is scan the field and play the best situation for your team.
While the initial start is planned ahead by the coach/team and there's a team strategy for each opponent, soccer is a moving piece game and can't be coached while players are playing. Players must rely on their instincts and decisions making 90% of the time they are on the field. That's why coaches are less important in soccer games than American Football games. Soccer coaches should be doing most of their coaching through practices, scrimmages, and video sessions. Soccer IQ is a thing because it is the ability of players to read the field and play into the best situation for their team. Any coach that tells your player what to do ALL game long (joystick), is not a good coach and is doing a disservice to their players.
In the case of the U12 team, why not practice this during a scrimmage or during practice? Games should be used to improve soccer IQ and quick decision making. Decisions should not be made for players during games because "how else will they learn to think for themselves on the field?"
Grace, you may be taking this to an extreme. Yes, coaches do tell players where to stand and what their role is, but all players must try to get open based on what the opponent will do, which will change the positioning of everyone - that's why a soccer player must scan the field and play according to what is available. A goalie that plays to a CB when an attacker is closing space quickly, is making the wrong decision, no matter what the coach said before game time.
I'm starting to notice at college and above levels, the CB taking the first kick and kicking to the keeper, then getting wide so the play starts at the keepers feet, with choices to play to either CB wide, play intermediate to mid or outside backs, or go long to forwards if the team is being pressed.
Re your last sentence, what are we talking about...a backpass? Taking a page from the watfly book I'd say that's true "usually". See Onana...striker closing in not only on the CB but on the goalkeeper himself. A goalkick? The goalkick rules prohibit an attacker from being inside the 18 when the goalkick is taken so if that's what you are talking about it's flat out wrong. First question is what are we trying to accomplish. If the answer is trying to teach the possession like in the Manchester v. TFA game, then coaches at the early years might be willing to sacrifice the win in order to teach the team and players how to possess. The second question is what system are we trying to play...there are some systems where it almost always will go through the CB...you may or may not like the system, but that is in the coach's discretion, not the goalkeeper.
I'm not advocating for a coach to joystick every distribution decision the goalkeeper makes. But it's absolutely incumbent on the coach to have the discussion with the goalkeeper about what the preferences are, what our values are, and what system we are playing. On the youth level, if the goalkeeper can't accomplish this after being with the coach for a certain period of time, that's more on the coach than it is on the goalkeeper (unlike shot stopping where the responsibility is 100% reversed). As to the U12 team, it's tough in the US to do in scrimmages (most coaches treat scrimmages like games instead of freezing the action for teaching moments....it's a good suggestion....however parents and players may have a tendency to be annoyed) or during practice (field size where multiple teams even on academy levels may be required to split a field....to properly train you really need a full size field).
Part of the reason you have your opinion is because of this lame have kids self teach philosophy we have in schools and in soccer since the early 2000s. Soccer is chess with athletics. Free play and exploration are absolutely a part of learning chess. So are competitive games where mistakes can be made and stakes are on the table. But chess players also spend an inordinate amount of time learning specific situations which they can recall and later implement in later games ("oh Burgov did that in '82"). In Europe, that's how they teach it, not just have the player figure it out. It's ultimately why US (and Latin American) soccer IQ is poor.
It's an import from Europe. Happening in the pros including some EPL teams. The reason is exactly for the reasons you outline: the GK can judge which side the pressure is coming from and go right or left, or if there's a high press go long, or maybe the DM opens up. Downside is you have to be very committed to building from the back because very likely the option is going to be back to a CB. Again this is a choice the coach needs to make, not the goalkeeper, including the hierarchy of preferences for where they want the ball to go once received.
Grace - not a goal kick or a back pass. just a pass. no need to change the situation to your desired outcome. The point is, no matter what your coach has said or what the game plan is - never pass to the player that is about to get the ball intercepted legally. Yes - I agree that you should be able to execute your team's game plan, but in order to execute your team's game plan, you better be able to read that field and scan for open players.
Soccer is not chess. Chess - the pieces are not moving. They sit still for you to study for long periods of time while one piece moves at a time. Which allows you time to pull up the many scenarios you've learned throughout your chess career. Soccer is fast and quick with 22 moving pieces all at once. That's why it's so important to practice your quick thinking mindset and consistent scanning because changes happen constantly, even when you haven't made a move.
I see this done at the youth level too. After the CB passes to The Goalie, the goalies makes the decision where to pass based on the options available. The good goalies read the field well, can see where the open players are and execute their pass to the open players and direct them in their next play because the goalie can see the entire field ahead.
Situation's important. I presented you specifics about a scenario involving a goalkick. You were the one who changed the scenario. You not only changed the scenario, but to one which is unlikely to happen ("just a pass") with a GK involved as (unless the coach has established a 3 man back line with the GK filling in the 4th which is another recent tactic) 90% of the ground kicking a GK does is a backpass or a goalkick.
In the scenario I outlined, you have a goalkick potentially in to the center back, clipped to the RB, and long kicked to the center. You seem to be gripping on the fact that there is a "right" answer here. My point is in the scenario I outlined, there isn't....only preferences dependent upon which system is being implemented by the coach. Now we can argue whether the system is right or wrong, but that's not the goalkeeper's decision, but the coach's. If the system fails, we have to ask if it fails because the coach hasn't properly communicated (which is the default most of the time....as I asserted, coaches rarely practice goalkicks on a full field and the tactics behind it is not something a GK coach can do) to the team the system and practiced with it, or because the GK lacks the soccer IQ or foot skills to in fact implement it. Your default position was that's usually on the GK. Mine is, no it isn't, because stuff like this is rarely ever practiced, and what's worse is many goalkeepers don't even get to take their own goalkicks until they are older/higher level and then we are surprised there is confusion.
I agree a quick thinking mindset and consistent scanning is important. Absolutely. But what you do with it is on the coach.
p.s. with the US Curriculum on the boys end being handed down through MLS Next, and spilling into other coaching education, it's worse than that because of the emphasis on small sided games (the thinking is practices should generally end with small sided scrimmages). The default here is, because of the US Possession Style being taught in the academies, that the goalkicks in these practices should all be short, so the teams can practice their possessions in practice (which they may not be able to during the games, because of other concerns, such as winning). Backpasses allow for a little more creativity, but still the preference is short and on the ground, especially given the smaller field (1/2, 1/3 or 1/4 practice fields). So then we are surprised when the keepers boot the ball into a 50/50 or play short without creativity, especially since many of them don't take their goalkicks until the older higher levels. When exactly are they supposed to magically achieve this osmosis?
By contrast, even if they are doing only club training, they are doing shot stopping at practically every practice.
I can't even remember what we started with.
Goalies, like field players, should be making decisions on the fields based on the team game plan and what's available on the field. Once the game has started, Coaching doesn't really matter a lot unless you have a joystick coach.
I'm not sure where you've been training but it sounds terrible. All the goalies I know practice accurate punting for distance to a moving target and accurate long/short passes and throws in soccer practice. They do this in soccer practice, goalie training and before game warm ups. They probably should be practicing those accurate long passes in an open field individually too as well as wall ball for the shorter passes. They practice their passing as much as their catching and throwing because it's the start of the attack.
"But what you do with it is on the coach." I disagree with this quote unless the coach is joysticking a player the entire time - in which case the coach sucks and is not allowing your player to train soccer IQ . you need to find a new team or learn to zone out that coach during games.
Welcome to Graceland.
You are making the mistake of assuming that because there’s instruction it has to come during the game. Of course not. That’s exactly the wrong time for it to happen. We agree joysticking is the wrong thing to happen. Where we disagree is you said well at least the goalkeeper should creatively use their distribution and be judged accordingly. My point was that’s more often than not on the coach because they don’t typically practice it, partially because of the us curriculum and partially because of field space constraints
gk training is also 100% the wrong time to learn this either. There is a difference in technical training and tactical training. What you describe is technical training…practicing how to goalkick at a moving Target, how to gain more accuracy, how to sidewinder. For the tactical training you need the team there (which is why your suggestion for the restructuring of how scrimmages are conducted might be a good one).
you have a tendency to rush to blame the gk. You did it in the example of that kid too on the ref thread. If the gk has neither the foot skill nor iq to execute an age/level appropriate system from the coach, by all means blame the goalkeeper. But if you look hard, all too often the problem is the coach (even if the gk is Mozart with their soccer iq if the rest of the team isn’t coached for what to do before and after the kick….in the case of the op we don’t know which it is but it might be either)
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I think all players (regardless of position) are responsible for their own actions on the field and ALL players should be able to scan the field continuously and find the best option for their team.
Yeah you don’t. That statement illustrates it. Yes all players should scan the field and find the best option. But the mechanics of the goalkeeper (everything such as for example how they should stand) and tactics are very different from that of the field players (strikers somewhat except….the mechanics of the 9 and wingers are also slightly different but closer).
I always support goalies 100% no matter what
Goalkeeper is a hard position to play + 95% of the time nothing is happens but 5% of the time the game is won or lost.
I don't even try to get into the specifics or politics of being a goalie. Just appreciate that someone is willing + able to fill that role.
Goalkeeper is a hard position to play + 95% of the time nothing is happens but 5% of the time the game is won or lost.
I don't even try to get into the specifics or politics of being a goalie. Just appreciate that someone is willing + able to fill that role.
Of course every position has different technical/physical skills required but there are definitely a lot of skills that ALL positions require, like good reading of field situation and accurate passing. I'm not picking on GK or demand more of them. I'd expect this from all players. This thread is about GK, that's why we're talking specifically about GK. I think you're mistaken about my emotions towards GKs as I am the first to support them and defend them when blame is placed on them but I'm not naive to their flaws.
You can support players and appreciate them while recognizing what they can improve at. That's how you help them grow. You can't blame the coach for every field player or GK player decision unless the coach is a joystick coach.
I'll step away from this conversation as I realize it's going in circles now.
The point isn't that you can blame the coach for the distribution. The point is we don't know, especially in the OP's case, who get the blame. Everything is issue dependent. Is it the GK's footskills, is it the GK's soccer IQ, is it the coach's failure to instruct the GK on preferences, or is it the coach's failing to properly instruct the team on tactics (e.g. no one gets open)? The point is we have no idea. More often than not, it's a little of everything with different issues weighted differently, but YOU put it on the GK, and sent up this false dichotomy between the extremes of kids figure it out on their own and joystick coaching (neither of which is good).