When two teams can advance to next round by just a draw....

M

mlx

Why should they give it all?

For:
  • Their performance put them in this position. It is not their fault the other teams depend on their result to advance.
  • Why risk injuries?
  • Why risk getting eliminated?
Agains:
  • It's against the spirit of the sport
  • It's unethical
  • it's cheating
Case in point, some girls LAGSD vs City SC game...

Discuss.
 
mlx said:
Why should they give it all?

For:
  • Their performance put them in this position. It is not their fault the other teams depend on their result to advance.
  • Why risk injuries?
  • Why risk getting eliminated?
Agains:
  • It's against the spirit of the sport
  • It's unethical
  • it's cheating
Case in point, some girls LAGSD vs City SC game...

Discuss.
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I'm not sure what game you are referring to bc LAGSD and City SC are the same club. If you agree with the other team to a fix and draw, then it's cheating. If you don't play hard to score but play defensively so long as the score is 0-0, then it's not cheating but a game strategy for tournament purposes.
 
Emma said:
I'm not sure what game you are referring to bc LAGSD and City SC are the same club. If you agree with the other team to a fix and draw, then it's cheating. If you don't play hard to score but play defensively so long as the score is 0-0, then it's not cheating but a game strategy for tournament purposes.
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Some game they are talking about here: https://www.socalsoccer.com/threads/club-soccer-stuff-that-drive-you-nuts.19796/page-11

I just thought I would give it its own thread so we can keep that thread for ranting about random stuff :)
 
Emma said:
... If you don't play hard to score but play defensively so long as the score is 0-0, then it's not cheating but a game strategy for tournament purposes...
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Hm, I like this definition. But, wouldn't it be just semantics? Meaning, there's no need for the coaches or players to "fix" the score, but just by knowing that a tie would qualify both and if one team doesn't attack, just defends, the other team can decide to do just the same. What's the line?
 
mlx said:
Hm, I like this definition. But, wouldn't it be just semantics? Meaning, there's no need for the coaches or players to "fix" the score, but just by knowing that a tie would qualify both and if one team doesn't attack, just defends, the other team can decide to do just the same. What's the line?
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When the two teams verbally agree to it - colluding to fix the game- it's wrong. If they both come out with that strategy, there's nothing wrong with it. Playing defensively is always an option even if Hope Solo disagrees. Parking the bus is a strategy. Long balls to bypass the midfield is a strategy when your midfield is weaker than the opposing team's.

It's not semantics because the other team has the free will to come out and try to score rather than be locked into playing defensively because of an agreement between coaches.

We've played games where we lose because we saved all our starters and put random players in random spots, knowing we would be playing the same team in the championship, in order to misguide their coach and team. Is it cheating? No. Did we put our best effort forwards? No...but it was fun and it's part of tourney strategy.
 
mlx said:
Hm, I like this definition. But, wouldn't it be just semantics? Meaning, there's no need for the coaches or players to "fix" the score, but just by knowing that a tie would qualify both and if one team doesn't attack, just defends, the other team can decide to do just the same. What's the line?
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The line is an agreement to a pre-determined outcome quid pro quo. If I agree to give your team something (no goals against) if you give me something (also no goals against), this is quid pro quo and match fixing.

Playing for a tie happens all the time but, without a quid pro quo agreement, it still requires a lot of effort and aggressive defense. You either cede possession in non-dangerous areas and have only a couple players transition in counters, or you hold possession and high press to win the ball back.. In a 60-90 minute game, if a game is fixed at the team level, you are going to notice if all the strikers decline to shoot at open nets or if defenders refuse to make hard tackles in dangerous areas. Game-throwing by one or two individuals is harder to detect (they usually get subbed out).

The question is whether the tournaments or leagues have rules against match fixing or, if they do, will they make examples of the teams. Surf Cup apparently let such teams advance to finals. https://fut411.com/post/surf-cup-scandal-update

It is also a fair question whether clubs have their own ethical rules in this area.

Anecdotally, I will point out that I once saw two FRAM teams, an 07 and 08 end up in a position where they played each other in group play. If the 07 team beat the 08 team, it would have advanced to the final. Both teams had the same coach. That coach sat down during the match, didn't say a word and let the two teams play their hearts out. The 08 team won and neither team advanced to the finals. That coach was Nunez and he forever has my respect for that.
 
Woodwork said:
The line is an agreement to a pre-determined outcome quid pro quo. If I agree to give your team something (no goals against) if you give me something (also no goals against), this is quid pro quo and match fixing.

Playing for a tie happens all the time but, without a quid pro quo agreement, it still requires a lot of effort and aggressive defense. You either cede possession in non-dangerous areas and have only a couple players transition in counters, or you hold possession and high press to win the ball back.. In a 60-90 minute game, if a game is fixed at the team level, you are going to notice if all the strikers decline to shoot at open nets or if defenders refuse to make hard tackles in dangerous areas. Game-throwing by one or two individuals is harder to detect (they usually get subbed out).

The question is whether the tournaments or leagues have rules against match fixing or, if they do, will they make examples of the teams. Surf Cup apparently let such teams advance to finals. https://fut411.com/post/surf-cup-scandal-update

It is also a fair question whether clubs have their own ethical rules in this area.

Anecdotally, I will point out that I once saw two FRAM teams, an 07 and 08 end up in a position where they played each other in group play. If the 07 team beat the 08 team, it would have advanced to the final. Both teams had the same coach. That coach sat down during the match, didn't say a word and let the two teams play their hearts out. The 08 team won and neither team advanced to the finals. That coach was Nunez and he forever has my respect for that.
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Both FRAM teams had the same coach?
 
Emma said:
When the two teams verbally agree to it - colluding to fix the game- it's wrong.
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Agreed. It's easy to tell when a coach has given the order not to compete. Zero defensive challenges, zero shots, lots of standing around, the coach is silent.
 
GLangevinito said:
Agreed. It's easy to tell when a coach has given the order not to compete. Zero defensive challenges, zero shots, lots of standing around, the coach is silent.
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colluding is evidence that the two teams agree to do so collectively together. If each team has made the decision on their own, then it's not colluding. It's awareness and individual decision making. May not be what I would choose or what you would choose but if they make it individually, there's nothing wrong with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer to see my children playing then ever just kicking it around because sitting on the sideline for that long watching kick arounds are boring. However, I want my children to learn how to strategize to win tournaments if it's their goal to win it.
 
Emma said:
colluding is evidence that the two teams agree to do so collectively together. If each team has made the decision on their own, then it's not colluding. It's awareness and individual decision making. May not be what I would choose or what you would choose but if they make it individually, there's nothing wrong with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer to see my children playing then ever just kicking it around because sitting on the sideline for that long watching kick arounds are boring. However, I want my children to learn how to strategize to win tournaments if it's their goal to win it.
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It's never worked that way in the history of youth sport. Two teams of kids don't spontaneously decide to not play the game without both coaches' approval. If my team all of a sudden decided not to play, even if the game is somewhat meaningless to the standings, one shout from me and they will start to play.
 
home.gotsoccer.com

GotSoccer Rankings

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Proof. But my memory was a bit off. The FRAM Nunez 08 team would have advanced if he would have told his 07s to throw. They should have all got a trophy for sportsmanship. I don't know anything else about the guy but he has been legendary in my mind for the last 3 years.
 
GLangevinito said:
It's never worked that way in the history of youth sport. Two teams of kids don't spontaneously decide to not play the game without both coaches' approval. If my team all of a sudden decided not to play, even if the game is somewhat meaningless to the standings, one shout from me and they will start to play.
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Not everyone needs to think or handle situations the the way you do, it doesn't make them unethical or wrong. Seems extreme to label it as such because they have different plans and ideas. It's ok to not take the play "every game well and great" strategy. I have heard plenty of coaches tell players: this game isn't important, our next one will be, don't kill yourself out there and let your body rest for the next one because it's going to be tough. Players come out there and they make the decision on how hard they will play depending on the circumstances and their teammates. Coach stays silent because the game isn't relevant and s/he would rather see no injuries during an irrelevant game.

Same thing as real life and work. When a new project is coming and the current project has become irrelevant, you tell your team to show up because we have to as it's required but hold off/chill to have a few days of rest because we will have some tough long hours next week. If is unethical to tell your team not to work hard those days even if they are getting a paycheck? I don't think so. Some days resting for a big project is important mentally and physically. It's important to know when to push on the gas and when to step on the brakes.
 
Interesting conversation. What the two teams did is clearly match fixing, is clearly wrong and should not be allowed by the event operator.
 
GLangevinito said:
It's never worked that way in the history of youth sport. Two teams of kids don't spontaneously decide to not play the game without both coaches' approval. If my team all of a sudden decided not to play, even if the game is somewhat meaningless to the standings, one shout from me and they will start to play.
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Do you think you have a higher soccer IQ and a better awareness of tournament outcomes than the ADULT players on a team capable of competing for a national championship? If so, name your credentials.
 
outside! said:
Do you think you have a higher soccer IQ and a better awareness of tournament outcomes than the ADULT players on a team capable of competing for a national championship? If so, name your credentials.
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Do you think Germany and Portugal colluded to pretty much see the game out for the last 25 min b/c they knew both teams were advancing?

This entire thread is full of sour grapes and spilt milk.
 
Lots of discussion about both teams tanking it for a draw in order to advance. I had a situation twenty years ago where I had a coach inform me before a game that they would intentionally lose the game in order to play for the second place trophy since a win wouldn't advance them to the championship game under the tournament rules. Other team won 6-1. I put the comment in my match report and let the tournament competition authority figure out what they wanted to do. In a separate communication I recommended that in the future the tournament rules be modified so this situation would not reoccur.
 
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