Two GK teams at older age groups/higher levels

[Dargle]

This has come up on the "Soccer only" thread in the Socal Scene section, but I figured it would make more sense to re-start it as a stand-alone topic in the Goalkeeper section.

If you have high ability/aspirations, the number of teams dwindle as you go up the pyramid and most of the top teams (at least in the boys division) have multiple keepers. Even if your kid is on an elite team as the sole GK, there is less loyalty or roster limitations at the higher levels and they can and will take on a strong GK at any time if they become available. That means you can't easily "choose" to be the only GK and ensure that choice will be respected if you want to be at an elite team or in an elite league.

Given that reality, how does your GK make the best of the situation assuming they are hoping to get recruited for college play? Obviously, you push to become the starter, but coaches may rotate regardless.

 

[socalkdg]

If you are splitting playing time, then let each keeper play a full game. Each keeper has their own style, they make adjustments as the game goes, and the team adjusts as well. No sense screwing that up with a change at half time.

On the girls side I don't see that many elite keepers, so the question is what to do if you have an elite keeper and an average keeper, continue sharing time? Plus I care as much about the keeper trainer for the club as I do about what team and coach my kid is playing with. With our club if another keeper were needed on our team we borrow a lower level keeper from another age grouped team, or the coach likes to go with a strong defender with good foot skills over one of those keepers.

Here is the thing, we all hear that once kids get to U16 and higher, playing time is earned and goes to the best players, with no guarantees to play. Why should a better goal keeper be splitting time when every other good player on the team gets 90% of the minutes.

 

[keepr]

Goalkeepers have different qualities. For example on the team my son is on he is GK1, very vocal, team leader and well respected. At halftime GK2 goes in and everything changes, the Center Back now has to take charge as the GK2 is not very vocal and things always seem to go a little awry as the communication drops.

 

[socalkdg]

How many keepers are there during keeper training? My daughter trains with one other female (college sophomore from D1 school, starter) and two boys, 15 and 17, starters on premier teams. The four of them have been training together for the last 6 months. I think who they train with may be just as important as what team and how many keepers are on that team.

 

[Grace T.]

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How many keepers are there during keeper training? My daughter trains with one other female (college sophomore from D1 school, starter) and two boys, 15 and 17, starters on premier teams. The four of them have been training together for the last 6 months. I think who they train with may be just as important as what team and how many keepers are on that team.

If you have a college sophomore in the GK training pod, that's not real club GK training right? There are exceptions, but most of the time I've found the club GK training is subpar not because of the coaches, but because the GK trainer has to train to the weakest player, whoever that is. The larger the pod, the worse the training. It helps if the GK trainer separates the pods out by skill level, but sometimes that might not be practical because of the timing (unless the coaches are prepared to excuse the GK from team training). If there are 2 GK on the same team, they might also be put on the same pod even though one of them is weaker (and then the weaker one will get most of the directed training). Also once a week isn't going to cut it. Far more important is picking the coach than the GK trainer.

 

[Dargle]

In some of the bigger clubs, the GK training for MLS Next and/or ECNL keepers is often run separately from the regular club GK training, so the quality of the keepers and the type of instruction is higher-level. They sometimes do boys and girls GK training separately as well, in part to accommodate different practice schedules and locations for the teams. All of this results in smaller groups for each session. Club GK training is still more about reps than about teaching (which happens more in the private training that most higher-level GKs do), but there is definitely competition to excel at the club sessions since the GK trainers speak with the team coaches and sometimes attend games.

 

[happy9]

Goalkeepers have different qualities. For example on the team my son is on he is GK1, very vocal, team leader and well respected. At halftime GK2 goes in and everything changes, the Center Back now has to take charge as the GK2 is not very vocal and things always seem to go a little awry as the communication drops.

This is the biggest issue with having 2 keepers that are not at the same level. Lesser keeper play impacts the behavior of the back line. If your team builds out of the back and your defenders are part of forward motion, it may eliminate that aspect of your style of play for an entire half.

I don't have any statistics for it, but I would guess many winning top teams only roster 1 keeper and have a field player as back up.

My preference is 1 keeper to preserve the continuity of the game. Keepers don't develop as well or as quickly when older if they are only playing half of a game.

 

[happy9]

In some of the bigger clubs, the GK training for MLS Next and/or ECNL keepers is often run separately from the regular club GK training, so the quality of the keepers and the type of instruction is higher-level. They sometimes do boys and girls GK training separately as well, in part to accommodate different practice schedules and locations for the teams. All of this results in smaller groups for each session. Club GK training is still more about reps than about teaching (which happens more in the private training that most higher-level GKs do), but there is definitely competition to excel at the club sessions since the GK trainers speak with the team coaches and sometimes attend games.

Definitely a good idea to review a club's keeper program. See how many go on to play at the next level. Go and see if the keeper coach is hovering between games, checking on their keepers. It's always good to see the keeper coach on the sideline.

 

[Grace T.]

Definitely a good idea to review a club's keeper program. See how many go on to play at the next level. Go and see if the keeper coach is hovering between games, checking on their keepers. It's always good to see the keeper coach on the sideline.

I agree it's important. I just don't think on the lists you look for it is the most important thing. Far more important is both the coach and playing style, followed by at the older ages the level of the team and ability to get college exposure. If you can get the trifecta, plus be the sole boys keeper, more power to you....you've found nirvana.

 

[socalkdg]

If you have a college sophomore in the GK training pod, that's not real club GK training right? There are exceptions, but most of the time I've found the club GK training is subpar not because of the coaches, but because the GK trainer has to train to the weakest player, whoever that is. The larger the pod, the worse the training. It helps if the GK trainer separates the pods out by skill level, but sometimes that might not be practical because of the timing (unless the coaches are prepared to excuse the GK from team training). If there are 2 GK on the same team, they might also be put on the same pod even though one of them is weaker (and then the weaker one will get most of the directed training). Also once a week isn't going to cut it. Far more important is picking the coach than the GK trainer.

This is the club trainer. Have three different pods, 3X per week. This is the highest level pod. 4 players in this pod, college keeper was with the club for 5 years so is always welcome. Daughter loves training with her. The four of them in this group have been training together for 6 months, talent pretty level across the board with the other three being better than my daughter. Best 6 months of training she has had, grown in ability as well as height and muscle. Completely different kid than a year ago when I thought she was really good then. LOL. She actually likes going to training and wouldn't miss it. Needs games though to face different situations on the fly.

 

[happy9]

I agree it's important. I just don't think on the lists you look for it is the most important thing. Far more important is both the coach and playing style, followed by at the older ages the level of the team and ability to get college exposure. If you can get the trifecta, plus be the sole boys keeper, more power to you....you've found nirvana.

Def not at the top but important to the DNA/culture assessment of the club. I for one love watching our keeper coach ranting and raving on the sideline during a game. It's even more fun to watch a keeper practice.

 

[keepr]

Both GKs on our team hated going to the club trainer. It was a one and done deal for them.

Luckily there are some awesome private trainers out there. Some of them have an excellent track record of GKs that have gone on to the next level, and beyond.

 

[MyDaughtersAKeeper]

If at all possible, you want 2 keepers who are at essentially the same level. Their strengths and weaknesses can be different but the level should be essentially the same. My daughter (an '05 sophomore) has played as the only keeper and in 2 keeper situations. In the 2 keeper keeper situations she has had a shit show, manageable and even good situations. Presently she is with a team with 2 keepers. The other keeper and my daughter are around the same level, but play a little differently. The other keeper is quieter, a better shot blocker and stays on here line more. My daughter is more vocal, and comes out more aggressively to break up the opportunity before it becomes a shot. They like each other. The get along. They both work hard. They respect each other. She is in a good situation. If she or the other keeper get hurt, can't travel, have an off day, the other keeper steps in with no disruption to the team. Maybe we are lucky as she is on a good team, but you don't want just 1 keeper at higher levels (IMO).

PS Very few of the coaches know how to train, develop and manage keepers.

 

[keepr]

PS Very few of the coaches know how to train, develop and manage keepers.

From our experience, very few is too many. Many teams overlook the goalkeeper, then rip them when it all goes to hell.

 

[happy9]

From our experience, very few is too many. Many teams overlook the goalkeeper, then rip them when it all goes to hell.

Keeper discussions are always so interesting and varied. High performing clubs have separate but equal focus on GK training (at least in my experience). At the ECNL/GA/MLS level, poor keeper training and play is a recipe for disaster. Finding good keepers is hard, finding two and playing them on the same team is really hard. Playing 2 keepers can be detrimental to the development of the player and can disrupt the flow of the game.

Both of my players play on the same club. Keeper play is central to how the game flows and their training is considered just as important as field player training.

Having and playing two keepers is one of the most polarizing things in youth soccer. Keeper parents are passionate, and they should be. GKing is hard.

 

[keepr]

@happy9 I agree 100% with what you said.

These are the threads I wish more coaches would read to better understand what may be the most important position on the field. I once was told by one of the top HS boys coaches that if he had to draft a team, a goalkeeper would be his first pick every time.

 

[Grace T.]

@happy9 I agree 100% with what you said.

These are the threads I wish more coaches would read to better understand what may be the most important position on the field. I once was told by one of the top HS boys coaches that if he had to draft a team, a goalkeeper would be his first pick every time.
[/QUOTE]

It's been a bit since I've read them, but IIRC according to Soccernomics, the GK is not the most important position on the field. That overwhelming goes to the striker and the CM. Statistically a marquee striker or CM can really make an impact on the team, which is why those translate into the highest money. It is absolutely vital to have a competent goalkeeper and a "bad" (what a "bad" goalkeeper is subject to argument) can make an impact on the team. But the Soccernomics theory is that the value of a player is translated into their worth on the open market, and GKs just don't have as much salary and transfer pull as a marquee striker or CM.

The Zlatan/Chicarito thing is illustrative if you look at the LA Galaxy. For the flip side, De Gea and Manchester.

 

[happy9]

@happy9 I agree 100% with what you said.

These are the threads I wish more coaches would read to better understand what may be the most important position on the field. I once was told by one of the top HS boys coaches that if he had to draft a team, a goalkeeper would be his first pick every time.

It's been a bit since I've read them, but IIRC according to Soccernomics, the GK is not the most important position on the field. That overwhelming goes to the striker and the CM. Statistically a marquee striker or CM can really make an impact on the team, which is why those translate into the highest money. It is absolutely vital to have a competent goalkeeper and a "bad" (what a "bad" goalkeeper is subject to argument) can make an impact on the team. But the Soccernomics theory is that the value of a player is translated into their worth on the open market, and GKs just don't have as much salary and transfer pull as a marquee striker or CM.

The Zlatan/Chicarito thing is illustrative if you look at the LA Galaxy. For the flip side, De Gea and Manchester.
[/QUOTE]
No doubt that a GK isn't the draw for a team and doesn't put butts in seats. Center Backs/defenders suffer the same fate. Successful coaches build teams starting from the back, similar to football -> offensive line, gotta draft that unicorn left guard to protect the QB's blind side.

 

[Grace T.]

No doubt that a GK isn't the draw for a team and doesn't put butts in seats. Center Backs/defenders suffer the same fate. Successful coaches build teams starting from the back, similar to football -> offensive line, gotta draft that unicorn left guard to protect the QB's blind side.

This definitely has been true of the US Men's National Team in all its recent incarnations), but it's definitely not true of either UK or the US pro teams. Rarely in the MLS is the goalkeeper a DP, and because of the salary caps, the goalkeeper is usually someone they are trying to fill in that's good enough, usually in an after thought after the team has been put in place, whether anchored on Zlatan, Chicarito, or Vela. When teams have tried to build around a goalkeeper DP, whether M'Bolhi or Howard, it rarely goes well. Same with the EPL...you don't see coaches starting to build based on a goalkeeper, particularly not in the last 10 years, MU being the obvious exception. One of the reasons why is the GK performance (being largely mental) can be erratic and to build a team around such a skiff of paper (which might easily need to be replaced.....see even the talk at Mu about replacing de Gea from time to time) is not the best solution for long term growth. Soccereconomics made the case that goalkeepers don't get the big payout not because of their draw, but because their impact on the game (in comparison of 1 GK to another lesser GK) just isn't as much as a the CAM or the striker. The calculation is different on a lead center back, and less so for a needed RB or LB....most recently Van Damme holding a DP spot for the LA Galaxy.

 

[happy9]

This definitely has been true of the US Men's National Team in all its recent incarnations), but it's definitely not true of either UK or the US pro teams. Rarely in the MLS is the goalkeeper a DP, and because of the salary caps, the goalkeeper is usually someone they are trying to fill in that's good enough, usually in an after thought after the team has been put in place, whether anchored on Zlatan, Chicarito, or Vela. When teams have tried to build around a goalkeeper DP, whether M'Bolhi or Howard, it rarely goes well. Same with the EPL...you don't see coaches starting to build based on a goalkeeper, particularly not in the last 10 years, MU being the obvious exception. One of the reasons why is the GK performance (being largely mental) can be erratic and to build a team around such a skiff of paper (which might easily need to be replaced.....see even the talk at Mu about replacing de Gea from time to time) is not the best solution for long term growth. Soccereconomics made the case that goalkeepers don't get the big payout not because of their draw, but because their impact on the game (in comparison of 1 GK to another lesser GK) just isn't as much as a the CAM or the striker. The calculation is different on a lead center back, and less so for a needed RB or LB....most recently Van Damme holding a DP spot for the LA Galaxy.

I'm really talking about top tier youth teams and college, where money isn't the driving factor and winning is everything. In the world of professionals, butts in seats is the driving factor. No one watches Man City because of Ederson.