Today in Fascism

whatithink said:
You do know that the overwhelming majority of (current) Gazans did not vote for Hamas in 2006 (the last election), as they were either not alive (50% of Gazans are children) or were children then. What exact stand do you think they could have made against 40,000 heavily armed homicidal maniacs, if they happened to know that Hamas were about to commit despicable horrific atrocities? But they obviously didn't know that. Who could these Gazans have spoken with to try to get "free" elections? Who was there working with them to lift them from abject poverty and provide them with a future for themselves and their children?

There is no excuse for or excusing of the acts of Hamas on Oct 7th. I'd have zero issue with those responsible being lined up against a wall or worse.

There is also no excuse for one of the most advanced armies in the world killing tens of thousands including 13,000 children. Israel has no end game here. With the scale of the killing, injured and destruction, Israel has managed to ruin its international reputation in pursuit of a pipe dream, eradicating Hamas, and is creating the next generation of lunatics who will be the same or worse.

And that's not even going down the current path of famine, with hundreds of thousands of Gazans already apparently on the edge or over it.
Click to expand...
We've been down this road before, but you're trying to separate Palestinians from Hamas, which is a false premise. I'm not sure what you're missing from all the anti-semite protests occuring across our country. Palestinians have wide spread support for Hamas and violence both in polling and in action.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ The fact that many weren't of age to vote 18 years ago is a totally irrelevant when they support Hamas today.

Hamas purposely imbeds itself with civilians so they can garner sympathy when cilivians are killed. This is their method of propaganda.

Israel is not perfect in this is war. However, I don't ever recall a war where one combatant is expected to, and in fact does, provide support for the civilians of the other combatant during the conflict. (Aid that is likely primarily ending up in the hands of Hamas). Maybe you can name another circumstance? Ask yourself, is Hamas starving or is it just the innocent civilians?

A few more questions to think about:
Where are the Jews that are protesting against Palestinians and threatening violence against them?
Why do Palestinians in Israel enjoy similar freedoms to Jews, but Palestinians in Gaza enjoy very limited freedoms? Could that be because of radical Islam?
If you had been consistently attacked by Palestinians (and other radical Islamists) for multiple decades wouldn't you be skeptical that these terrorists would keep their end of a piece or ceasefire deal?
When we enter into agreements with other countries is there always 100% buy in from all government officials?
What is Hamas doing to protect the innocent women and children? Or are do they rely on those deaths to promote their cause against Israel?
Was there not a ceasefire on October 6, 2023?
 
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whatithink said:
There is also no excuse for one of the most advanced armies in the world killing tens of thousands including 13,000 children.
Click to expand...
Those numbers are shall we say very suspect. They are provided by the Gaza health ministry....which is Hamas.

I wish I had saved the article but a stats guy went through looking at daily death tolls and said it was statistically impossible for total deaths to increase at a constant daily rate. He also noted that the death tolls provided shows vastly higher numbers of death of women/children vs men which is not realistic.

But the western press takes the daily deaths provided by Hamas as fact and report as such.
 
Desert Hound said:
Those numbers are shall we say very suspect. They are provided by the Gaza health ministry....which is Hamas.

I wish I had saved the article but a stats guy went through looking at daily death tolls and said it was statistically impossible for total deaths to increase at a constant daily rate. He also noted that the death tolls provided shows vastly higher numbers of death of women/children vs men which is not realistic.

But the western press takes the daily deaths provided by Hamas as fact and report as such.
Click to expand...
What could possibly be Hamas incentive for over reporting women and children deaths? ;)
 
watfly said:
We've been down this road before, but you're trying to separate Palestinians from Hamas, which is a false premise. I'm not sure what you're missing from all the anti-semite protests occuring across our country. Palestinians have wide spread support for Hamas and violence both in polling and in action.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ The fact that many weren't of age to vote 18 years ago is a totally irrelevant when they support Hamas today.

Hamas purposely imbeds itself with civilians so they can garner sympathy when cilivians are killed. This is their method of propaganda.

Israel is not perfect in this is war. However, I don't ever recall a war where one combatant is expected to, and in fact does, provide support for the civilians of the other combatant during the conflict. (Aid that is likely primarily ending up in the hands of Hamas). Maybe you can name another circumstance? Ask yourself, is Hamas starving or is it just the innocent civilians?

A few more questions to think about:
Where are the Jews that are protesting against Palestinians and threatening violence against them?
Why do Palestinians in Israel enjoy similar freedoms to Jews, but Palestinians in Gaza enjoy very limited freedoms? Could that be because of radical Islam?
If you had been consistently attacked by Palestinians (and other radical Islamists) for multiple decades wouldn't you be skeptical that these terrorists would keep their end of a piece or ceasefire deal?
When we enter into agreements with other countries is there always 100% buy in from all government officials?
What is Hamas doing to protect the innocent women and children? Or are do they rely on those deaths to promote their cause against Israel?
Was there not a ceasefire on October 6, 2023?
Click to expand...
Conflating Palestinians and Hamas as the same provides complete justification for every Palestinian death. That's too easy. I agree that polls do suggest that Gazans support Hamas. I have no idea why that is, but I also don't see that they have any alternative or that anyone is giving them an alternative, not least as Hamas would likely kill them! The PLA was an alternative, they proved themselves to be corrupt and inept, and remain so in the West Bank to this day.

Its hardly a surprise that Hamas imbeds itself in the civilian population. The question then becomes are you better than them, the same or more callous, given you have superiority in arms, numbers and technology. Hiding behind the refrain above doesn't excuse the death and destruction.

Israel is directly responsible for the Gazans. It is an occupied territory. They control everything that goes in and out and have done for decades. They are (internationally) responsible for every life in it. If they want out of that resonsibility then say the word and I'm sure it can be sorted out. They haven't and won't. Its a far stretch to call it a war. Are you acknowledging that innocent civilians are starving, is that OK? How many need to starve to death before the "I haven't killed every Hamas terrorist yet" isn't a good enough excuse?

For your Qs
- the settlers have been actively violent against Palestinians for a couple of decades. When they are tried, they are rarely convicted. There are 500K of them, and they are actively part of the current Israeli government.
- why don't Palestinians have equal rights in their own country? Who decided which ones could stay and which ones would be kicked out of their homes and shunted to the two current camps aka occupied territories?
- Israel hasn't kept to the peace deal either, see the first point above.
- typically that part not agreeing isn't asking for more death and destruction.
- I can't answer for Hamas, and wouldn't want to. I also wouldn't want to use them as my baseline level and would be horrified if my actions were so bad that I had to use their actions as "justification" - that would seem to make me no better.
- Apparently not. There have been rockets going from Gaza to Israel for years. There have been Israeli counter attacks etc going on for years. There was never an incursion and massacre like Oct 7th prior, but no, there was no ceasefire.

Desert Hound said:
Those numbers are shall we say very suspect. They are provided by the Gaza health ministry....which is Hamas.

I wish I had saved the article but a stats guy went through looking at daily death tolls and said it was statistically impossible for total deaths to increase at a constant daily rate. He also noted that the death tolls provided shows vastly higher numbers of death of women/children vs men which is not realistic.

But the western press takes the daily deaths provided by Hamas as fact and report as such.
Click to expand...
I was skeptical of the numbers too, but I've seen the qualification in a variety of media that the source for the numbers is generally accurate, so they are taken as verbatim. I have also not seen much denial from Israel and in fact have seen Israeli sources stating that they have killed 10-12K Hamas fighters and acknowledging the collateral deaths which are always a multiple. Below is from the BBC (Feb) and quotes a variety of official Israeli sources - you're welcome. ;)

www.bbc.com

Israel Gaza: Checking Israel's claim to have killed 10,000 Hamas fighters

BBC Verify examines the evidence on combatant deaths, as concern grows about the scale of civilian killing.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
 
whatithink said:
Conflating Palestinians and Hamas as the same provides complete justification for every Palestinian death. That's too easy. I agree that polls do suggest that Gazans support Hamas. I have no idea why that is, but I also don't see that they have any alternative or that anyone is giving them an alternative, not least as Hamas would likely kill them! The PLA was an alternative, they proved themselves to be corrupt and inept, and remain so in the West Bank to this day.

Its hardly a surprise that Hamas imbeds itself in the civilian population. The question then becomes are you better than them, the same or more callous, given you have superiority in arms, numbers and technology. Hiding behind the refrain above doesn't excuse the death and destruction.

Israel is directly responsible for the Gazans. It is an occupied territory. They control everything that goes in and out and have done for decades. They are (internationally) responsible for every life in it. If they want out of that resonsibility then say the word and I'm sure it can be sorted out. They haven't and won't. Its a far stretch to call it a war. Are you acknowledging that innocent civilians are starving, is that OK? How many need to starve to death before the "I haven't killed every Hamas terrorist yet" isn't a good enough excuse?

For your Qs
- the settlers have been actively violent against Palestinians for a couple of decades. When they are tried, they are rarely convicted. There are 500K of them, and they are actively part of the current Israeli government.
- why don't Palestinians have equal rights in their own country? Who decided which ones could stay and which ones would be kicked out of their homes and shunted to the two current camps aka occupied territories?
- Israel hasn't kept to the peace deal either, see the first point above.
- typically that part not agreeing isn't asking for more death and destruction.
- I can't answer for Hamas, and wouldn't want to. I also wouldn't want to use them as my baseline level and would be horrified if my actions were so bad that I had to use their actions as "justification" - that would seem to make me no better.
- Apparently not. There have been rockets going from Gaza to Israel for years. There have been Israeli counter attacks etc going on for years. There was never an incursion and massacre like Oct 7th prior, but no, there was no ceasefire.


I was skeptical of the numbers too, but I've seen the qualification in a variety of media that the source for the numbers is generally accurate, so they are taken as verbatim. I have also not seen much denial from Israel and in fact have seen Israeli sources stating that they have killed 10-12K Hamas fighters and acknowledging the collateral deaths which are always a multiple. Below is from the BBC (Feb) and quotes a variety of official Israeli sources - you're welcome. ;)

www.bbc.com

Israel Gaza: Checking Israel's claim to have killed 10,000 Hamas fighters

BBC Verify examines the evidence on combatant deaths, as concern grows about the scale of civilian killing.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
Click to expand...
Points taken. I just can't reconcile any sort of equivalency between Hamas and Israel actions based upon what I'm currently seeing with my own eyes and the totality of what has happened historically.

Israel has offered a cease fire agreement that has been described as "extraordinarily generous" that Hamas is refusing and endless "Pro-Palestinian" protests have/had many elements of anti-Semitism. 1+1 equals hate. Radical Islam is evil. Judism is not. Radical Islam is 100% to blame for the current plight of Gazans.
 
watfly said:
Points taken. I just can't reconcile any sort of equivalency between Hamas and Israel actions based upon what I'm currently seeing with my own eyes and the totality of what has happened historically.

Israel has offered a cease fire agreement that has been described as "extraordinarily generous" that Hamas is refusing and endless "Pro-Palestinian" protests have/had many elements of anti-Semitism. 1+1 equals hate. Radical Islam is evil. Judism is not. Radical Islam is 100% to blame for the current plight of Gazans.
Click to expand...
I haven't read that Hamas is refusing it. I sincerely hope they do take the 40 day truce offer and that it can then become permanent.

"Hamas has only said publicly that it is studying the new Israeli proposal, but an unnamed senior official told AFP news agency on Sunday that "the atmosphere is positive unless there are new Israeli obstacles".

"There are no major issues in the observations and inquiries submitted by Hamas regarding the contents [of the proposal]," they added."
www.bbc.com

Gaza war: US 'hopeful' Hamas will accept Israel's new ceasefire offer

The secretary of state calls Israel's latest offer for a hostage release "extraordinarily generous".
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
 
watfly said:
What could possibly be Hamas incentive for over reporting women and children deaths? ;)
Click to expand...
☠️👽👹👺👎🤟💩🤡 Hound makes a great point. I really like everyone's involvement. The views are through the roof. We all need each other. As long as fairness, respect and dignity is the foundation of us all, then let's play a new game of life. That old guard was getting nasty and quite frankly, full of themselves. The go has needs man. Let's play fair and square and let the best human win. Earth is going to be a place to play, rest, relax and give some time to help heal other each day. No more 10-hour days working as slaves. If each of us gives 4 hours a day, rest on Sunday, and then the rest of each day is to play, relax, sleep, eat and whatever other activities you like. This place can and will be epic. War is shit. No one wins in a war, just the rich punks at the top that made this dumb game up in the first place. We were born into this game called, "PAY-FOR-PLAY." The one's at the top feast on children. ISANE!!!
 
watfly said:
Points taken. I just can't reconcile any sort of equivalency between Hamas and Israel actions based upon what I'm currently seeing with my own eyes and the totality of what has happened historically.

Israel has offered a cease fire agreement that has been described as "extraordinarily generous" that Hamas is refusing and endless "Pro-Palestinian" protests have/had many elements of anti-Semitism. 1+1 equals hate. Radical Islam is evil. Judism is not. Radical Islam is 100% to blame for the current plight of Gazans.
Click to expand...
Way to be humble Watty. I'm going to sit out for a few and just take in all the takes each of you have. Together we can make things better. The participation is through the roof, and I'm just tickled to death. God bless you all and God bless America!!!!

P.S. I know some of you think I'm nuts and maybe I am. I know I'm nuts for America. We have so much to offer ourselves, our families, our neighbors, our communities, our cities, out towns, our counties, our states and there are so much more "ours." Add your own our_________________________
 
whatithink said:
I haven't read that Hamas is refusing it. I sincerely hope they do take the 40 day truce offer and that it can then become permanent.

"Hamas has only said publicly that it is studying the new Israeli proposal, but an unnamed senior official told AFP news agency on Sunday that "the atmosphere is positive unless there are new Israeli obstacles".

"There are no major issues in the observations and inquiries submitted by Hamas regarding the contents [of the proposal]," they added."
www.bbc.com

Gaza war: US 'hopeful' Hamas will accept Israel's new ceasefire offer

The secretary of state calls Israel's latest offer for a hostage release "extraordinarily generous".
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
Click to expand...
I hope they accept it too.
 
whatithink said:
They control everything that goes in and out and have done for decades.
Click to expand...
This is factually incorrect. Egypt controls access to Gaza from the south through their entry point at Rafah.

In terms of deaths those numbers have not been confirmed. There are no independent organizations verifying anything. The article you reference again restates that death info is provided solely by Hamas...aka the health ministry. The ministry claims 70% of all deaths are women and children. That is farcical on its face if one simply reviews past conflicts and their associated death tolls.

The BBC who you linked to has always been anti Israel. And their article? They are not trying to confirm Hamas stats. Nope they are more worried about IDF claims about Hamas military deaths.

Hamas has always lied about numbers and facts. With a str8 face they claim they don't hide in schools and hospitals. Everyone knows they do and pretend otherwise...until Israel goes and, captures an area and shows that yes indeed they have been using them.

The only thing Hamas has been true about is their desire to rid the area of Jews and the Jewish state. And this is the one thing orgs like the BBC and others like to ignore.
 
Desert Hound said:
This is factually incorrect. Egypt controls access to Gaza from the south through their entry point at Rafah.

In terms of deaths those numbers have not been confirmed. There are no independent organizations verifying anything. The article you reference again restates that death info is provided solely by Hamas...aka the health ministry. The ministry claims 70% of all deaths are women and children. That is farcical on its face if one simply reviews past conflicts and their associated death tolls.

The BBC who you linked to has always been anti Israel. And their article? They are not trying to confirm Hamas stats. Nope they are more worried about IDF claims about Hamas military deaths.

Hamas has always lied about numbers and facts. With a str8 face they claim they don't hide in schools and hospitals. Everyone knows they do and pretend otherwise...until Israel goes and, captures an area and shows that yes indeed they have been using them.

The only thing Hamas has been true about is their desire to rid the area of Jews and the Jewish state. And this is the one thing orgs like the BBC and others like to ignore.
Click to expand...
You are correct, there is the Rafah crossing.

Aid trucks slated for entry into Gaza via Rafah have to first drive for a distance of more than 100 km (62 miles) to the Nitzana crossing between Egypt and Israel for security screening, then return to Rafah for another check before entering Gaza. Israel has a veto. We could also delve into the whole Muslim Brotherhood & Hamas and Egypt's hatred of the MB as another explanation of how seldom the Rafah crossing is open, but why bother.

From the article, quoting from the Times of Israel reporting from the IDF which also put the ratio of Hamas:Innocents as 1:2 - so it appears that the IDF is on board with the 30K+ dead number as reported by Hamas.

"On 19 February, the Times of Israel reported the IDF as saying 12,000 fighters had been killed. We put that figure to the IDF who, in two separate responses to us, said the figure is "approximately 10,000" and "more than 10,000"."
 
A couple points regarding the starvation in Gaza. Gazans had very severe food security issues prior to the current conflict. Historically, Gazans have relied in part on UN food aid. Unfortunately, both prior and subsequent to Oct 7, the UN has had to halt to aid to Gaza due to theft and looting of the aid by Hamas. If Hamas surrendered the famine issues could be solved in short order. You can provide all the aid to Gaza you want, but as along as Hamas is in control the food will never get to the people that need it most.

Another point, If Gazan Palestinians truly wanted out of Hamas rule their are plenty of historical examples of citizens overthrowing governments. Would it have been easy, no, but theoritically Gaza civilians outnumber Hamas by over 10x. Where there is a will, there is a way. However, there is no will because Gazans have been taught from an early age to hate Jews, and that hate is used by Hamas to exploit Gazans to accept Islamic Jihad.

This is from a Jewish backed organization so it has its own perspective (although it does support a two state solution), but it lays out a compelling argument for how Americans are being conned by Hamas.
www.ajc.org

7 Ways Hamas Has Conned Americans and Spread Hatred of Jews

Major influencers on social media, as well as elected officials and mainstream media news and pundits, have amplified Hamas’ messages and presented those messages “pro-Palestinian.” From the "River to the Sea" to claims that Israel is carrying out the "Genocide of the Palestinians" here are...
www.ajc.org www.ajc.org

The con has certainly worked brilliantly on the college protestors.
 
This restores some of my faith in American humanity. Not ideal, but it sounds like the idiocy is primarily limited to the "less experienced" of our population. Not sure what's up with some of our "elite" professors.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Americans overwhelmingly back Israel over Hamas in new poll

A new poll shows the vast majority of Americans support Israel in its war against Hamas over the militant group despite the pro-Palestinian protests erupting across the United States.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
 
whatithink said:
There is also no excuse for one of the most advanced armies in the world killing tens of thousands including 13,000 children.
Click to expand...

No excuse? The US and its allies killed about 9,000 civilians when we liberated Mosul from ISIS. Just one battle.

www.nbcnews.com

Liberating Mosul from ISIS left more than 9,000 civilians dead: report

The true number killed in the 9-month battle to liberate Mosul from ISIS has not been acknowledged by the U.S.-led coalition.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

For that matter, in Fallujah, we launched an airstrike directly on the hospital. This was legal under the laws of war. The hospital in question was being used as a command post. Compared to us, IDF are a model of restraint. Faced with a similar situation, they went in on the ground.

When an army hides behind civilians, civilians die. That's why it's a war crime.
 
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