ECNL. The C stands for Cartel

, it is absurd to call one sport requiring more skill than another

That right there is the problem. a. Soccer does require more technical skill than a linesman. b. The QB position (which you seem to be conceding now) requires more technical skill than a linesman. Logically if you accept b. but not a. then that means you actually think soccer and a football linesman have equivalent technical skills. That's nonsense. Again, my nephew can walk on as a DE (not even a linesman) as a freshman with minimal experience. He could not do so for the soccer program at his school or on any (except maybe the Latino league team) of my son's teams.

One thing that is conveniently ignored is that the skill involved in playing football - regardless the position, regardless the level, is valued by many times over compared so most other sports. d!

It's ignored because it's irrelevant. That was already addressed. The money can be a function of other things such as body size, the impact the position makes, and athleticism. Football requires way more strength and a particular type of athleticism than does soccer. You see the converse in soccer BTW, as laid out in the soccernomics books. Goalkeeper is harder position to master. You need to be great in the modern game not just as a field player but you have all the additional skills of a goalkeeper on top of it. Goalkeepers are paid way less the strikers, less than a marquee playmaker, less than a centerback. Why? because the position is less valuable to the outcome....a goalkeeper can cost you the game, but he can't win it for you, and there's quite a bit of stuff that even the best goalkeeper won't have any impact on.

but it should be fun to watch kids play basketball. Hope all have as fun and entertaining weekend!

A far more interest (and open) question is where basketball fits on the skill hierarchy. My nephew's second sport is basketball. His school is lower ranked in basketball (only top 40) than football (top 20 SoCal). He has way more experience in basketball, having played rec ball until 12 and then a year and a half (because of COVID) club ball on what we would consider the equivalent of pre letter league. He has the nature height and physique for the forward role, which unlike guards, his school doesn't have a ton of. He was assigned the JV B team freshman year and this year dresses varsity but plays JV. Have fun.
 
Wow, I started this thread because I wanted to vent about how much I hate the ECNL and their Cartel like hold on soccer (specifically girls) here in the US.
I feel like now the thread has beaten a dead horse, gone back in to the barn grabbed two more and a mule and commenced beating them to death too.
I am just glad my 2024 daughter is making a decision on her school tomorrow and committing. I may drop back on the thread in the future for my .02 but I'll leave you guys to go at it.
 
Wow, I started this thread because I wanted to vent about how much I hate the ECNL and their Cartel like hold on soccer (specifically girls) here in the US.
I feel like now the thread has beaten a dead horse, gone back in to the barn grabbed two more and a mule and commenced beating them to death too.
I am just glad my 2024 daughter is making a decision on her school tomorrow and committing. I may drop back on the thread in the future for my .02 but I'll leave you guys to go at it.
If you don't like ECNL what do you propose replaces it?

The only thing that I've seen has a chance at challenging ECNL is if a small group of top clubs got together and formed some kind of super league like what MLS NEXT has done on the boys/mens side. GA is an annoyance but it's basically doing the same thing a ECNL.

I think that over time the Academy model will happen in the US for both men and women. But, it will only catch on at the highest levels. There's too many parents that are willing and able to pay to play.
 
Ahhh -- I see, I never noticed the word "ratings" in the app. Yeah the ratings are tightly coupled with ranking. You can't have one without the other. These ratings also inform the match predictions. A team ranked 50th will have similar ratings as a team ranked 51st -- a prediction on that matchup would likely lean more towards a draw.

When you say "Are the MLS teams better than ECNL? Yes." what do you mean? Considering that 0.2 number is heavily weighted via the top MLS Next teams, that seems like an inaccurate statement to make. If you took out the academies, what would that number look like?

Of course the ratings of a team ranked 50th vs 51st is probably going to have a close rating. But if you compair 40th vs 50th who knows. They could have a very close rating, or be far apart. Having both the Ranking and Rating in a chart makes it clear when the teams are closely matched, and where the variation starts.

If you take out the Academy teams, the average will change. But then it's manipulated data. You can manipulate the data on any league to reach the outcome you want to see. If we are compairing leagues, then you have to own all the teams that play in the league (MLS Academy teams play league games against MLS Next teams) What I meant about MLS teams being better, is exactly what I said: "the numbers suggest if the average MLS team played the average ECNL team 100 times, MLS Next would win 1-0 20 times and tie 80 times." Logically that would apply to the top MLS team vs. the Top ECNL, and the worst MLS team vs. the worst ECNL team; in reality the outliers of the leagues are not going to fit the 'average' results. But we already can see what will happen when matching up individual teams (the SR App provides that).
 
All California including Socal? If so those numbers are being thrown by the fact that at least in SoCal, boys ECNL isn't very broad (just 10 teams). MLS however not only includes the 3 academies but also some of the outlining clubs that struggle to remain competitive. The Delta on MLS Next, at least in Socal, is going to be much more variable. (The same probably true of EA as well, which unlike MLS Next has no academies driving up the number, and has the same regional issue vis-a-vis ECNL, which doesn't, for example, have a team in the Downtown ethnic triangle region or, for the time being, north of the Val). The broader the league, the more chance for variance creep in, which might explain why ECNL has been so reluctant to expand (for example putting in Eagles in Camarillo at ECRL despite that there is no Ventura/Oxnard team to achieve regional coverage).

Yes, all of California. In order to create a League Average, you have to include all teams. Including all teams does not "throw off" an "Average Calculation." It may not show the results you expected to see, but that is how data works some times. When two groups have a different Field of Data (the quantity of teams in one league is different than the quantity of teams in the other), you can choose to compair percentages instead. The top 10% vs the top 10%; SR has done this in the past and the results didn't have any significant difference from the average calculation of all teams. Which indicates the data and rankings are correct. You can't just compair the top 5 teams of one league against the top 5 teams of another league if the 'Field of Data' is not equal; you may end up compairing the top 10% of one league against 60% of another. If the leagues have the same number of teams, sure, you can compair the top 5 against top 5; otherwise if is more accurate to use top 5% against top 5%.
 
If you don't like ECNL what do you propose replaces it?

The only thing that I've seen has a chance at challenging ECNL is if a small group of top clubs got together and formed some kind of super league like what MLS NEXT has done on the boys/mens side. GA is an annoyance but it's basically doing the same thing a ECNL.

I think that over time the Academy model will happen in the US for both men and women. But, it will only catch on at the highest levels. There's too many parents that are willing and able to pay to play.

The simple solution would be to drop all these "National League" scams (ECNL, MLS, GA, 64, etc.) and just play in the local leagues. Just have to convince the parents of tge youngers that they are facing a group con that requires the entire group turn thier backs on playing in the leagues.
 
The simple solution would be to drop all these "National League" scams (ECNL, MLS, GA, 64, etc.) and just play in the local leagues. Just have to convince the parents of tge youngers that they are facing a group con that requires the entire group turn thier backs on playing in the leagues.
Might be a scam, but ECNL gives your kid the best shot of being scouted. We had a minimum of at least 30 coaches/colleges per game in Phoenix a couple months ago...19 of our 34 kids are committed and some are still juniors in high school. You guys might not like how it works, but it's the only show in town. Not too many scouts/colleges are really going to high school games to recruit kids anymore. They're under the impression that ECNL, especially, and other leagues have done all the weeding out process...
 
Might be a scam, but ECNL gives your kid the best shot of being scouted. We had a minimum of at least 30 coaches/colleges per game in Phoenix a couple months ago...19 of our 34 kids are committed and some are still juniors in high school. You guys might not like how it works, but it's the only show in town. Not too many scouts/colleges are really going to high school games to recruit kids anymore. They're under the impression that ECNL, especially, and other leagues have done all the weeding out process....
"29 of our 34" wasn't able to edit it for some reason..
 
Of course the ratings of a team ranked 50th vs 51st is probably going to have a close rating. But if you compair 40th vs 50th who knows. They could have a very close rating, or be far apart. Having both the Ranking and Rating in a chart makes it clear when the teams are closely matched, and where the variation starts.

If you take out the Academy teams, the average will change. But then it's manipulated data. You can manipulate the data on any league to reach the outcome you want to see. If we are compairing leagues, then you have to own all the teams that play in the league (MLS Academy teams play league games against MLS Next teams) What I meant about MLS teams being better, is exactly what I said: "the numbers suggest if the average MLS team played the average ECNL team 100 times, MLS Next would win 1-0 20 times and tie 80 times." Logically that would apply to the top MLS team vs. the Top ECNL, and the worst MLS team vs. the worst ECNL team; in reality the outliers of the leagues are not going to fit the 'average' results. But we already can see what will happen when matching up individual teams (the SR App provides that).

At U15 MLS Next breaks out the Academy teams. In the case of the Quakes they go to the West Division. The remaining NorCal MLS Next teams stay in the Northwest Division. So U15 and older, nobody is playing the Academy teams other than themselves. ECNL doesn't have anything like that. So how do we compare these leagues in a way that makes sense? I think you have to compare ECNL NorCal division to the MLS Next Northwest division. In that case, there's really not a noticeable delta. This is why the SR league ranking just really isn't super clear on what it's actually comparing. MLS Next is actually two leagues in one once you get to U15.
 
Nah... 6' 5" struggles to get down low on all those balls you parried to the side.

Many a time a couple inches would have made a difference…Argentina’s GK is 6’5, and made the save of his life in OT in the WC Final…needed all 6’5 of him to do it. Pluses and minuses at all sizes. It comes down to the total package. You can be successful at 5’10 or 6’7 depends on so many factors. Height is one of many factors. But an important one.
 
The simple solution would be to drop all these "National League" scams (ECNL, MLS, GA, 64, etc.) and just play in the local leagues. Just have to convince the parents of tge youngers that they are facing a group con that requires the entire group turn thier backs on playing in the leagues.
on the boys side, the academies wouldn't have the cannon fodder they need given the distances in the US.
The other main function against them is to act as a way to sort talent without having to do the distortions of a pro/rel system, which is where we get into the accusation implied by the OP: that it's really just a way to lower competition between the clubs since having an ECNL or MLS slot is a golden ticket to attracting talent not just to the first but also the lower teams.
The old coast pro/rel system just didn't work which is why it fell apart: too much variance in field and staff quality, too many teams locked out of any real chance of improvement, too many short cuts taken to advance up that pyramid.
I, however, don't really see a way to fix it short of establishing a national governance system that can regulate things. However, that means blowing up even AYSO and that's simply not going to happen.
 
on the boys side, the academies wouldn't have the cannon fodder they need given the distances in the US.
The other main function against them is to act as a way to sort talent without having to do the distortions of a pro/rel system, which is where we get into the accusation implied by the OP: that it's really just a way to lower competition between the clubs since having an ECNL or MLS slot is a golden ticket to attracting talent not just to the first but also the lower teams.
The old coast pro/rel system just didn't work which is why it fell apart: too much variance in field and staff quality, too many teams locked out of any real chance of improvement, too many short cuts taken to advance up that pyramid.
I, however, don't really see a way to fix it short of establishing a national governance system that can regulate things. However, that means blowing up even AYSO and that's simply not going to happen.
Coast didn't work because parents wanted their kids to be on the highest tier even when they did NOT DESERVE to be on it. E
 
I have to agree with Grace. Football is a game of skill, but is far more dependent on size, strength and speed than soccer. Here's some examples who have taken years long gaps between playing, some of which never played American football until the NFL:

NFL Players Who Skipped College - TheSpread.com

5 Rugby players to crossover to the NFL (americanfootballinternational.com)

Stephen Neal's unique journey to the NFL has proven successful (patriots.com)

Chester Pitts - Wikipedia (Didn't play in highschool)

These are the only unskilled players that "played" pro soccer that I can think of and they both at least played growing up:

Carlos Kaiser (footballer) - Wikipedia

Usain Bolt - Wikipedia
The best current example is Brandon Aubrey the kicker for the Cowboys. He is a 28 year old rookie and is 30 for 30 on field goals this year, and last night he became the first kicker to have two FG's 59 yards or greater (59 and 60). Both kicks hit net. Aubrey never played football, but played soccer for Notre Dame and was drafted by the MLS. He didn't start place kicking until he was 24, and is now the best rookie kicker ever. He is an absolute beast.

While going from soccer to kicker is a common transition, I agree with MSK357 and GraceT... soccer players are much better athletes and more skilled than most football players. Soccer players make great football players at any position, but particularly the skill positions. In most cases, its because soccer players have superior footwork. Also foot/eye coordination seems to correlate with hand/eye coordination. My son and his buddies that have left MLS Next teams to play football dominate most football players that have grown up playing Pop Warner football. If you're hell bent on having your kid go to a school on an athletic scholarship, have them play soccer until they reach high school then switch to football.
 
Deserve is a word that’s doing a lot of work there. Who “deserves” to play at the highest tier?
It's a combination of nature and nurture. What you're born with and what you work for.

Every parent thinks their kid belongs in the top league and those who can afford it created ECNL. GA, DPL, E64 etc. to put their kids in the "top" league.
 
It's a combination of nature and nurture. What you're born with and what you work for.

Every parent thinks their kid belongs in the top league and those who can afford it created ECNL. GA, DPL, E64 etc. to put their kids in the "top" league.
The problems with that in a pro/rel system is that it's not really a true meritocracy either:
1. Selection into the top tier is by team, not by individual. So you have a bunch of people playing in the top tier which aren't really the best by "nature and nurture" but instead by politics or money or region anyways. The only way you'd fix this is by having a regional org that sorts kids according to their level.
2. The team that "earned it" is last year's teams, not the current team. Unless you lock kids in so they can't transfer off a promoted team, there's no way to ensure that they dance with the one that brung them and earned it.
3. Promotion isn't necessarily the most well developed in the long term. It's by the recruitment of the best players who are generally closest to the age line. You are basically rewarding the oldest, earliest developing players and the coaches that are best at recruiting, not coaching.
4. They generally structured it like a pyramid when really the talent distribution is more like a bell curve. If you have 5 levels, your biggest level should be flight 3, not the bottom level.

That said, ECNL and MLS Next do at least an adequate job of sorting as pro/rel. There's a long line of kids willing to play as a reserve player for MLS Next and coaches aren't putting their best players on the reserve bench to play politics or the richest at primary. The parents created the letter league thing in order to put their weaker kids up there just doesn't float. It was always about control: In the case of MLS Next, to give the academies cannon fodder to play against and in the others to control their own destinies so "if they build it, they will come" and to be able to control field and competition quality. The issue which the OP raised, which is a valid question, if whether it was also created to restrict their competition.
 
Back
Top