Bad News Thread

[dad4]

You are essentially conceding that given the hand that was dealt, with the actors that were in place, this is what we'd get. Go back 4 years and not elect Trump or have the left care less about removing him isn't a pandemic prescription. You don't get to reshuffle the cards that are dealt. Repeatedly you've called for a variety of actions (ranging from outright Australia) to just close indoor dining and mask up without explaining how it would actually have played out given the real word conditions and cards dealt.

You assume that the rules are neither followed nor enforced.

Under those assumptions, there is no alternative. If we refuse to follow the rules, and we refuse to allow enforcement, then the rules will fail.

That's true for any set of rules. Not just covid.

 

[Grace T.]

You assume that the rules are neither followed nor enforced.

Under those assumptions, there is no alternative. If we refuse to follow the rules, and we refuse to allow enforcement, then the rules will fail.

That's true for any set of rules. Not just covid.

I made no such assumption. The only rule to the game is you can't reshuffle the deck. You stuck at the start with the Constitution, laws, and personalities dealt. Where you go from there building out a realistic scenario is up to you. But do away with the two political parties in not a realistic pandemic prescription, anymore than make people angels....you want to rewrite the Constitution in your pandemic scenario go right ahead and show us how it's done, but you start with the Constitution as written. You start with people as they are. You are stuck with the overton windows for both
Trump and Pelosi. Every time I've tried to do it I can't get there without having Trump declare martial law and cancel the 2020 election.

 

[dad4]

I made no such assumption. The only rule to the game is you can't reshuffle the deck. You stuck at the start with the Constitution, laws, and personalities dealt. Where you go from there building out a realistic scenario is up to you. But do away with the two political parties in not a realistic pandemic prescription, anymore than make people angels....you want to rewrite the Constitution in your pandemic scenario go right ahead and show us how it's done, but you start with the Constitution as written. You start with people as they are. You are stuck with the overton windows for both
Trump and Pelosi. Every time I've tried to do it I can't get there without having Trump declare martial law and cancel the 2020 election.

So, I can have any realistic scenario, so long as I assume that one third of the population (because of their personalities) will refuse to follow basic public health orders?

And I have to assume the rules are unenforced, because you will say any real enforcement would be unconstitutional.

So we assume that a hundred million people will gather indoors and ignore masks.

Of course that will fail. That's kind of my point.

But it fails because of the decisions we make, not because covid was some unbeatable super virus.

 

[Grace T.]

So, I can have any realistic scenario, so long as I assume that one third of the population (because of their personalities) will refuse to follow basic public health orders?

And I have to assume the rules are unenforced, because you will say any real enforcement would be unconstitutional.

So we assume that a hundred million people will gather indoors and ignore masks.

Of course that will fail. That's kind of my point.

But it fails because of the decisions we make, not because covid was some unbeatable super virus.

No your scenario has to explain how you’ll persuade the 1/3 to follow the rules or barring that how you would enforce given the constitution and Supreme Court you are dealt. Again make people angels is not a pandemic solution. Make Americans the Japanese is not a pandemic prescription. Eliminate the d and r parties is not a pandemic prescription. You keep saying it’s possible....once and for all tell us how the great dad4 plan played out in the alternate universe, given the cards dealt. Again I’ve tried a few times and can’t get there short of trump declaring martial law and canceling the 2020 elections.

 

[Grace T.]

2 stats I saw today. Don’t know if either is accurate. 1 in ny times: 100 Americans today will die in a car crash...1 fully vaccinated person will.

2 California still has more students in virtual only than all other states combined.

 

[happy9]

You assume that the rules are neither followed nor enforced.

Under those assumptions, there is no alternative. If we refuse to follow the rules, and we refuse to allow enforcement, then the rules will fail.

That's true for any set of rules. Not just covid.

I have to give you credit for your consistent "this" or "that" approach.

It looks like it works for you and those who it can work for. It's unfortunate that those who can afford being locked down can't take a step back and empathize with the majority who can't lockdown. Look it up, poverty has increased and we've yet to see the real repercussions. Lockdowns really only do one thing ,make poor people more poor.

It's quite startling that civil liberties are so quickly trampled on without real proof that trampling on them will help the situation. I'm sure there are articles all over the internet that will support what I say/think and articles that flat out think I'm a wacko.

It's a testament to our economic engine that we haven't suffered more. Companies are ready to get back to full capacity and the consumer is ready to spend money. I get it, many people have died. I don't see anyone in an uproar about addressing the elephant in the room that has hovered over covid deaths - the general health of American society. No uproar there. No effort to help those in need of respite from food deserts in our inner cities. But let's spend a ton of money on vaccines - big pharma is killing it. Hats off to them. Imagine putting in grocery stores in Chicago, Baltimore, Oakland, etc. Nope, let's scare everyone into lockdowns and get big government to feed big pharma..

 

[dad4]

I have to give you credit for your consistent "this" or "that" approach.

It looks like it works for you and those who it can work for. It's unfortunate that those who can afford being locked down can't take a step back and empathize with the majority who can't lockdown. Look it up, poverty has increased and we've yet to see the real repercussions. Lockdowns really only do one thing ,make poor people more poor.

It's quite startling that civil liberties are so quickly trampled on without real proof that trampling on them will help the situation. I'm sure there are articles all over the internet that will support what I say/think and articles that flat out think I'm a wacko.

It's a testament to our economic engine that we haven't suffered more. Companies are ready to get back to full capacity and the consumer is ready to spend money. I get it, many people have died. I don't see anyone in an uproar about addressing the elephant in the room that has hovered over covid deaths - the general health of American society. No uproar there. No effort to help those in need of respite from food deserts in our inner cities. But let's spend a ton of money on vaccines - big pharma is killing it. Hats off to them. Imagine putting in grocery stores in Chicago, Baltimore, Oakland, etc. Nope, let's scare everyone into lockdowns and get big government to feed big pharma..

What makes you think we would have had a roaring economy if we had let covid run free starting last March? People would have retreated from economic life either way.

Agree that trying to control covid, but failing, is probably the worst policy for the economy.

I don’t put much stock in the FL example, though. FL gets to infect people over spring break, then send them back home to stress out some other state’s health care infrastructure. Most places don’t get to pull that stunt. If Nebraska infects ten thousand people, it is Nebraska that has to deal with it.

 

[dad4]

No your scenario has to explain how you’ll persuade the 1/3 to follow the rules or barring that how you would enforce given the constitution and Supreme Court you are dealt. Again make people angels is not a pandemic solution. Make Americans the Japanese is not a pandemic prescription. Eliminate the d and r parties is not a pandemic prescription. You keep saying it’s possible....once and for all tell us how the great dad4 plan played out in the alternate universe, given the cards dealt. Again I’ve tried a few times and can’t get there short of trump declaring martial law and canceling the 2020 elections.

Why do I have to do that? My position is that we, as a people, should have behaved differently.

If you want to say that the half million deaths are the direct and inevitable result of our collective actions over the past 15 months, I simply agree with you. That’s why we should have behaved differently. Our chosen actions harmed us.

 

[Grace T.]

Why do I have to do that? My position is that we, as a people, should have behaved differently.

If you want to say that the half million deaths are the direct and inevitable result of our collective actions over the past 15 months, I simply agree with you. That’s why we should have behaved differently. Our chosen actions harmed us.

So in the end (after 1 year and some months back and forth) it turns out you have no real world prescription for having done covid protections better in the United States beyond wishing people were better than they were. Again wishing people to be angels is not a policy prescription. Sums up your entire position over the months right here...in the end we finally get to it

 

[Grace T.]

What makes you think we would have had a roaring economy if we had let covid run free starting last March? People would have retreated from economic life either way.

Agree that trying to control covid, but failing, is probably the worst policy for the economy.

I don’t put much stock in the FL example, though. FL gets to infect people over spring break, then send them back home to stress out some other state’s health care infrastructure. Most places don’t get to pull that stunt. If Nebraska infects ten thousand people, it is Nebraska that has to deal with it.

Neither Florida nor Sweden “let covid run free”.

 

[crush]

Happy 4/20. Don;t worry!!!

 

[happy9]

What makes you think we would have had a roaring economy if we had let covid run free starting last March? People would have retreated from economic life either way.

Agree that trying to control covid, but failing, is probably the worst policy for the economy.

I don’t put much stock in the FL example, though. FL gets to infect people over spring break, then send them back home to stress out some other state’s health care infrastructure. Most places don’t get to pull that stunt. If Nebraska infects ten thousand people, it is Nebraska that has to deal with it.

Who's saying we should have let Covid run free? We can walk and chew gum at the same time. Covid would have impacted the economy either way.

We are the most innovative country ever. Safety theater and partisan politics severely hampered our ability to prudently deal with Covid - it's still happening to a large degree now.

Where is the data to support the idea that the FL spring break stressed health care systems throughout the country? Where is the data that Sturgis severely stressed healthcare systems outside of South Dakota? You are still using safety theater to drive a very narrow approach to crisis/consequence management. It drives business owners batty that people don't think they can run their businesses in manner that is prudent and provides them a viable financial landing strip until better conditions persist.

We were not going and we are not going to "control" covid. It's apparent from places like CA and MI. Just curious as to how many businesses in your neck of the woods will never come back.

 

[dad4]

Who's saying we should have let Covid run free? We can walk and chew gum at the same time. Covid would have impacted the economy either way.

We are the most innovative country ever. Safety theater and partisan politics severely hampered our ability to prudently deal with Covid - it's still happening to a large degree now.

Where is the data to support the idea that the FL spring break stressed health care systems throughout the country? Where is the data that Sturgis severely stressed healthcare systems outside of South Dakota? You are still using safety theater to drive a very narrow approach to crisis/consequence management. It drives business owners batty that people don't think they can run their businesses in manner that is prudent and provides them a viable financial landing strip until better conditions persist.

We were not going and we are not going to "control" covid. It's apparent from places like CA and MI. Just curious as to how many businesses in your neck of the woods will never come back.

If you aren't saying we should eliminate all restrictions, then what restrictions do you want to keep?

 

[happy9]

If you aren't saying we should eliminate all restrictions, then what restrictions do you want to keep?

This is where we differ. Prudent measures established by a responsible business owner and followed by responsible consumers. If you are vulnerable and not vaccinated, stay home. There are going to be outliers but I doubt welding people shut in their homes would have worked out well in this country.

The economy and educating our children is what needs to be preserved, and has nothing to do with greed at the local level. Killing jobs, closing schools sets us back generationally, especially in poorer areas where people live hand to mouth. It's irresponsible to not consider ways to walk and chew gum. Big Government usually gets in the way and is incapable of thinking at the grassroots level.

Lockdowns brief well when spoken off of a powerpoint slide by someone in some lab or briefing room who has job security. It's a myopic way of solving complex socio economic problems that hamper many communities in this country. Thank goodness we are a federal republic.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I don’t put much stock in the FL example, though. FL gets to infect people over spring break, then send them back home to stress out some other state’s health care infrastructure. Most places don’t get to pull that stunt. If Nebraska infects ten thousand people, it is Nebraska that has to deal with it.

The reason you don't put much stock into FL is that it goes against all your predictions.

You cannot understand why they are in the same situation as CA, the state who took the closest approach to what you wanted to see happened.

You are stuck and now are making up all kinds of excuses as to why the states that didn't really lock down didn't have the problems you thought they would.

You claim to live in the real world and then make up stuff like people went to FL and then went back to their lockdown states and stressed out the local systems there. There have not been any studies on that.

You keep wishing masks works. And yet Hound pointed out that major organizations have said they don't have evidence they work.

You keep thinking the pandemic continues on because of 20% ignoring the data and going on. You keep going on about restaurants and bars. And ignore in home transmission and the fact that people are going to work, have to go shopping, etc.

The sad thing is that you think/thought that government policy would stop the worldwide spread of an airborne disease.

Most other people on this forum who initially thought gov policy would work like you, have moved on to the realization that no it doesn't.

You stick with it. Watching you talk to others on here is like trying to have a discussion about religion with a true believer. The Bible says this and you are sticking with it because that is what you believe.

The difference is that the true believers of religion are not trying to shut schools, businesses, mandate masks, etc. In other words I can ignore them, but have to push back against believers like you.

 

[dad4]

This is where we differ. Prudent measures established by a responsible business owner and followed by responsible consumers. If you are vulnerable and not vaccinated, stay home. There are going to be outliers but I doubt welding people shut in their homes would have worked out well in this country.

The economy and educating our children is what needs to be preserved, and has nothing to do with greed at the local level. Killing jobs, closing schools sets us back generationally, especially in poorer areas where people live hand to mouth. It's irresponsible to not consider ways to walk and chew gum. Big Government usually gets in the way and is incapable of thinking at the grassroots level.

Lockdowns brief well when spoken off of a powerpoint slide by someone in some lab or briefing room who has job security. It's a myopic way of solving complex socio economic problems that hamper many communities in this country. Thank goodness we are a federal republic.

I didn’t see any list of restrictions you support. I assume you mean that the government should impose no restrictions at all intended to limit the spread of the virus?

No OSHA requirements for better ventillation at the meat packing plants. No mask mandates. No limits on indoor music festivals. Just each one of us gets to decide for ourself which prudent measures we think are appropriate. If someone wants to hold a week long indoor convention in Phoenix, then they get to do it, because that is their right as a responsible business owner.

I’m not sure that works out the way you think it does.

 

[Grace T.]

The reason you don't put much stock into FL is that it goes against all your predictions.

You cannot understand why they are in the same situation as CA, the state who took the closest approach to what you wanted to see happened.

You are stuck and now are making up all kinds of excuses as to why the states that didn't really lock down didn't have the problems you thought they would.

You claim to live in the real world and then make up stuff like people went to FL and then went back to their lockdown states and stressed out the local systems there. There have not been any studies on that.

You keep wishing masks works. And yet Hound pointed out that major organizations have said they don't have evidence they work.

You keep thinking the pandemic continues on because of 20% ignoring the data and going on. You keep going on about restaurants and bars. And ignore in home transmission and the fact that people are going to work, have to go shopping, etc.

The sad thing is that you think/thought that government policy would stop the worldwide spread of an airborne disease.

Most other people on this forum who initially thought gov policy would work like you, have moved on to the realization that no it doesn't.

You stick with it. Watching you talk to others on here is like trying to have a discussion about religion with a true believer. The Bible says this and you are sticking with it because that is what you believe.

The difference is that the true believers of religion are not trying to shut schools, businesses, mandate masks, etc. In other words I can ignore them, but have to push back against believers like you.

His pandemic response of wishing people were just better, more considerate, more like him is the essence of preaching. He’s basically admitted that in the end he’s preaching instead of advocating math and science based solutions. It’s for that reason the real world mask data is irrelevant to him: in the end it’s the act which is virtuous regardless of whether it has any real world effect. Same with the weekly take out: it’s a ritual act of virtue instead of hey we feel like eating pizza tonight.

 

[Desert Hound]

His pandemic response of wishing people were just better, more considerate, more like him is the essence of preaching. He’s basically admitted that in the end he’s preaching instead of advocating math and science based solutions. It’s for that reason the real world mask data is irrelevant to him: in the end it’s the act which is virtuous regardless of whether it has any real world effect. Same with the weekly take out: it’s a ritual act of virtue instead of hey we feel like eating pizza tonight.

I think that sums up exactly where he is at.

At this point he is ignoring real world data and instead advocating policies based on what he wished would work.

 

[watfly]

This is where we differ. Prudent measures established by a responsible business owner and followed by responsible consumers. If you are vulnerable and not vaccinated, stay home. There are going to be outliers but I doubt welding people shut in their homes would have worked out well in this country.

The economy and educating our children is what needs to be preserved, and has nothing to do with greed at the local level. Killing jobs, closing schools sets us back generationally, especially in poorer areas where people live hand to mouth. It's irresponsible to not consider ways to walk and chew gum. Big Government usually gets in the way and is incapable of thinking at the grassroots level.

Lockdowns brief well when spoken off of a powerpoint slide by someone in some lab or briefing room who has job security. It's a myopic way of solving complex socio economic problems that hamper many communities in this country. Thank goodness we are a federal republic.

Bingo.

His pandemic response of wishing people were just better, more considerate, more like him is the essence of preaching. He’s basically admitted that in the end he’s preaching instead of advocating math and science based solutions. It’s for that reason the real world mask data is irrelevant to him: in the end it’s the act which is virtuous regardless of whether it has any real world effect. Same with the weekly take out: it’s a ritual act of virtue instead of hey we feel like eating pizza tonight.

and Bingo.

 

[happy9]

I didn’t see any list of restrictions you support. I assume you mean that the government should impose no restrictions at all intended to limit the spread of the virus?

No OSHA requirements for better ventillation at the meat packing plants. No mask mandates. No limits on indoor music festivals. Just each one of us gets to decide for ourself which prudent measures we think are appropriate. If someone wants to hold a week long indoor convention in Phoenix, then they get to do it, because that is their right as a responsible business owner.

I’m not sure that works out the way you think it does.

Let's agree to disagree. Government has a purpose. OSHA is a regulatory agency that can levy fines for violations. OSHA is pretty effective at what they do.

You don't have much trust in people. You don't run your own business, you don't have the appropriate experience or context to make sound business decisions. You assume that short term greed is the priority for business. It's not. For many it's a lifelong investment and their identity. Allowing government to snuff out their livelihood is the antithesis of what America is about.

When was the last time you were in a business in FL, AZ, or TX? You will be surprised at how they are being run. My wife is in FL right - her surprising feedback is that mask compliance is FL is higher than in AZ. Businesses know what they have to do to keep their doors open, safely. I'm sure there are outliers, always will be. Parts of CA in AUG were not exactly compliant - openly defiant.

I do appreciate your consistency though, really do.