The reason GKs accept being on a team with two, or even three, GKs as they get older is to get exposure. The number of high level teams drop at the older age groups as talent consolidates. For GKs, that can leave some quality players without access to college scouts. So, many of them will join a high level team (particularly DA for boys) understanding that they will get less game time, but knowing they can get more attention. I know many DA teams that will choose which GKs start their junior year depending upon which ones are still trying to get college offers and which scouts will be in attendance. Once a GK has his offer, he'll play less understanding they need to showcase one of the other GKs. Some will even move to an SCDSL Discovery or CSL Premier team at that point, with the blessing of their future college coach, in order to get more playing time and reps.
Player Development vs Super Team Chasing?
- Thread starter Night Owl
- Start date
The reason GKs accept being on a team with two, or even three, GKs as they get older is to get exposure. The number of high level teams drop at the older age groups as talent consolidates. For GKs, that can leave some quality players without access to college scouts. So, many of them will join a high level team (particularly DA for boys) understanding that they will get less game time, but knowing they can get more attention. I know many DA teams that will choose which GKs start their junior year depending upon which ones are still trying to get college offers and which scouts will be in attendance. Once a GK has his offer, he'll play less understanding they need to showcase one of the other GKs. Some will even move to an SCDSL Discovery or CSL Premier team at that point, with the blessing of their future college coach, in order to get more playing time and reps.
Eagle33
PREMIER
Getting attention while sitting on the bench? It doesn't work this way. Normally goalkeepers don't come on teams to be 3rd or even 2nd keeper. Most of the time they end up in this situation being on a team already before coach recruited someone who is better. In other cases they were either promised starting spot or shared time.
Yes but it needs to be both age and difficulty level, not just one. It may be a flight 1 team, but that is not a good reason to keep an elementary school kid on the bench 2/3 of every game.
Perhaps your experience is different, but I'm telling you what I've seen from observing and speaking with GKs and their parents, both in D1 colleges and still in DA/club, who were actually in these situations in their high school years (especially junior year). Obviously, it doesn't work if the GK never plays, but I'm saying the GK takes reduced play (e.g., rotating every other game or every other half or even every third game) because they want to be showcased at the right time in the right setting. Perhaps you can call that being promised shared time, but I'm telling you that's why they agreed to it when they could have gone elsewhere and gotten 100% of the playing time.
Eagle33
PREMIER
My experience is first hand (not observing someone else) with my own kid, who played DA, left DA and now playing at D1 school. So maybe, just maybe I can tell you how it really is.
I'm not sure why you're insistent that your anecdote is the only way it is, but even if everyone else was lying or deluded as to why their kid was on a DA team with other GKs, that's their perception of why they were there (and why they left when they did in some cases). The fact is that their kids did end up at D1, so it's not as if they screwed up that badly.
You (still) seem to think that winning games at this age means anything at all. Ask any experienced coach who has taken kids to college or beyond or gone through it themselves. Winning games is laughably unimportant at this stage. Your kid doesn't get better by winning games. They get better by working their way out of tough spots. The _worse_ their team is, the more opportunity they have to grow.
I have seen many great GKs accept a spot on a DA knowing they'll split time just because it's DA. Whether that's a good strategy, I don't know, but it seems to be common. For better or worse, the DA label sells.
the way it really is... for you. Others make other choices.
Not winning games but playing the best competition possible has proven to make players and teams grow. You can have a pretty good team and enter flight 3 league and win all games and gain no development from that. But you can be playing the best teams in flight 1 and lose all the games and still be developing better. There would be plenty of opportunities to get through tough spots in the second scenario. I don’t believe it’s important playing for trophies but there has to be some sort of measurement for progress and how can we do that by winning tough games, competing. That shows development progress. I just don’t see how having a team with extreme differences in talent roster can help the players develop if the best are under achieving the lowest players are being too challenged. Wouldn’t you think if the roster of talent was fairly equal the coach can create a development program for them that all players on the team can get the most out of. Why or why not. Let’s look at the other side of the coin. So what would be the issue or drawback of having a team with an equal talent roster to develop vs one that doesn't, there has to be pros and cons for both sides of the spectrum?
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Let’s look at the pros and cons of being in a competitive soccer team with a balanced talent roster.
Pros:
1) tougher competition can lead to faster development
2) a form of character building. Teaches that hard work is rewarding and sets kids up to be winners in life
3) coaches don’t have to split their time between the strongest and the weakest players allowing for a faster development rate across the whole team
4) kids won’t develop entitlement habits because they have to keep up with the bar
5) players and families form strong bonds
6) could lead to healthier lifestyle because kids are encouraged to stay in top shape.
Cons:
1) some kids may get burned out from the pressure to perform
2) minimal free time to do other activities.
3) ? Any others can’t think of any.
Feel free to add to the list and then we can see if the pros outweigh the cons or vice versa.
Pros:
1) tougher competition can lead to faster development
2) a form of character building. Teaches that hard work is rewarding and sets kids up to be winners in life
3) coaches don’t have to split their time between the strongest and the weakest players allowing for a faster development rate across the whole team
4) kids won’t develop entitlement habits because they have to keep up with the bar
5) players and families form strong bonds
6) could lead to healthier lifestyle because kids are encouraged to stay in top shape.
Cons:
1) some kids may get burned out from the pressure to perform
2) minimal free time to do other activities.
3) ? Any others can’t think of any.
Feel free to add to the list and then we can see if the pros outweigh the cons or vice versa.
Do you happen to know of actual studies on what kinds of schedules are best for player development? (actual data, not just voice of experience.)
My own thought is that kids learn best when faced with challenges that are within reach. Therefore, try to find as many close games as you can. A 5-5 season with lots of one point games is perfect. conversely, 9-0 games are a waste of both teams’ time.
However, that is just an opinion. I have nothing numeric to back that up or knock it down.
Exactly your first scenario is competitive the second is not. I’ve researched and found that some coaches agree and others don’t. And that’s why I’m trying to debate the issue. For me, it depends on the goals of the individual on what they want. There are numerous types of different teams from rec to very high competitive club teams. To say that one extreme is better than the other is nonsense. What works for you may not work for me. It’s about finding what you personally want out of development. You want to have fun, meet new friends and play soccer recreationally, then go to AYSO. You want to compete and strive to become professional then join a competitive club team, where rosters are balanced and where you will be challenged to keep up with the bar. Like I mentioned before. It’s subjective to an individual’s goals and cannot be taken to an extreme.
...or they are on the team for bench-level skills at another position, so there is an understanding already that they are the backup.
Ill give you guys a perfect example my daughter was not happy playing AYSO. She found it boring because none of the kids passed the ball. She asked me to pull her off the team. Hence she was not having fun playing with kids the same age that were way below her skill and soccer IQ level. She enjoys being in the tough competitive games and that’s what she sees as fun for her. It’s all subjective.
I still don’t see the major benefit of why placing kids in teams with different talent level rosters is better than having them in teams with balanced talent roster levels when it comes to development. While we can agree that it’s not about winning games or trophies etc. Why would one say that it’s better to have unbalanced talent rosters. No one seems to have an answer but to say ohh because such and such coach says so. What are the facts. Pros and cons. I keep going back to my first point. It’s subjective to the individuals goals. What’s fun for him may not be fun for her. When the goal is for them to have fun and enjoy the process right? Isn’t that what it’s about for kids?
I still don’t see the major benefit of why placing kids in teams with different talent level rosters is better than having them in teams with balanced talent roster levels when it comes to development. While we can agree that it’s not about winning games or trophies etc. Why would one say that it’s better to have unbalanced talent rosters. No one seems to have an answer but to say ohh because such and such coach says so. What are the facts. Pros and cons. I keep going back to my first point. It’s subjective to the individuals goals. What’s fun for him may not be fun for her. When the goal is for them to have fun and enjoy the process right? Isn’t that what it’s about for kids?
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Justus
GOLD
I played GK in AYSO and in the Mexican co-ed adult leagues. Go down to TJ for away game and then home game in El Monte. Fun times. I wanted action. I see some GK get none because their on all star goat team with tough as nails defenders. No shots on goal. I would look to find action and lot's of save opportunities
Finally I found a coach that knows what he’s talking about and that agrees with my logic regarding player development and team development. A coach that understands that possession soccer and winning are both important. A coach that is getting the desired results and is producing elite level professional athletes that are playing for their respective national teams. The problem with American culture is that everyone tries to sugar coat things and keeps on sweeping their weaknesses under the rug. Saying we have culture problems and throw the problem to the misunderstood winning at all costs vs development phenomena as the root of of non global success in developing elite players.
Too many people are stuck in the rec mentality having their kids play competitive club soccer. Saying things like a coach is responsible for player development when they only average about 2 days and 3 hours a week with teams. And don’t expect their kids to work hard and train outside of practice. Is that really enough time to create player development? Lmao to those who think it’s the coaches responsibility. It’s up to the player itself to want it. By doing the things outside of practice that most American kids ignore and the whole world is doing. It’s about touches, it’s about playing pickup soccer with your friends and finding the necessary passion and the love for the sport that will make you into a technical and smart player, through countless hours of training and hard work. Simple as that. You get back what you put in. The law of the Universe
https://343coaching.com/us/
http://blog.3four3.com/tag/development/
Just watch his U11 team play possession soccer. No wonder this video went viral.
Notice how these 10 year olds play possession soccer. Notice the player formations. All players are on the same page. All players are tactical and technical. And when they lose the ball they do what ever it takes to get the ball back right away. True Tiki Taka and the product of a coach that knows what he’s doing.
Too many people are stuck in the rec mentality having their kids play competitive club soccer. Saying things like a coach is responsible for player development when they only average about 2 days and 3 hours a week with teams. And don’t expect their kids to work hard and train outside of practice. Is that really enough time to create player development? Lmao to those who think it’s the coaches responsibility. It’s up to the player itself to want it. By doing the things outside of practice that most American kids ignore and the whole world is doing. It’s about touches, it’s about playing pickup soccer with your friends and finding the necessary passion and the love for the sport that will make you into a technical and smart player, through countless hours of training and hard work. Simple as that. You get back what you put in. The law of the Universe
https://343coaching.com/us/
http://blog.3four3.com/tag/development/
Just watch his U11 team play possession soccer. No wonder this video went viral.
Notice how these 10 year olds play possession soccer. Notice the player formations. All players are on the same page. All players are tactical and technical. And when they lose the ball they do what ever it takes to get the ball back right away. True Tiki Taka and the product of a coach that knows what he’s doing.
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Keepermom2
GOLD
My daughter is a 13 year old Keeper and we are playing on a team that is winning by landslides because SCDSL didn't want to play us in a higher flight even though half of our team is new and we fought for it. None the less, they focused on last years results in placement. After 5 games we have scored 32 goals. Any way, my daughter just started playing on a Mexican league boys team to get more action and loves it. She is a little nutty. It is so funny...I hate that we are on a winning team! My daughter loves her club team so there you have it! She will get the experience she needs paying $50 to play in a Saturday and Sunday Mexican league.I played GK in AYSO and in the Mexican co-ed adult leagues. Go down to TJ for away game and then home game in El Monte. Fun times. I wanted action. I see some GK get none because their on all star goat team with tough as nails defenders. No shots on goal. I would look to find action and lot's of save opportunities
So wait. You told us on the other thread that you had put her in AYSO this year so that you could double up her training and that you could get her to exercise her leadership skills. Did that not go very well? Did you let her drop the team after making the commitment? How's the AYSO season going and how's your coaching going? It really does sound that you are just unhappy the way your org runs things and you should start looking for a new org that's more in line with your values.
In the 1970s few kids played club ball....everyone was in pretty much in AYSO rec, from the future pro to the handicapped kids. You have a point. That's why AYSO didn't work...the handicapped kid got frustrated because no one would pass to him and the future pro because no one developed him or her. Besides the knowledge gap (daddy coaches didn't know how to coach soccer), getting appropriate play time with like skilled players was why people left AYSO and club ball exploded. My own son (not a future pro) asked to leave AYSO because when he was preparing for the Extras tryouts around age 8, he couldn't get any of his teammates to train with him (they had other sports, and one parent told us they were too busy with their Disneyland annual pass).
But we don't have a tiered rec system like the UK (where only the best of the best play academy, and everyone else plays rec)...so the sorting is imperfect....you have silver players that shouldn't be playing at gold and you have silver players that are playing down at bronze....our bracket system is broken too because coaches (including teams that shouldn't be promoted) are chasing the promotions so they can recruit better players and "upgrade". Coaches need to fill rosters and their read of players isn't perfect, so the sorting system isn't going to perfect...jeez we can't even get the brackets right....in an ideal world there shouldn't be any teams outside of the top DA teams that run away with the bracket, or that lose every game.
Very few people are advocating going back to the AYSO everyone play together model. You're just doing the classic strawman there and knocking it down. Where the disagreement is circles around how important winning is (and the resulting training/cuts/recruiting/tactics that you need to do to get there), and at what age should it happen. As people have told you, the consensus is not at 8 years old.
futboldad1
PREMIER
The coach you quote has lost his job, and currently license suspended from a history of bullying among other things. He's also yet to do it with more than this one super-talented group. If he does it with a new group, it'll mean a lot more.