Substitution Rules

[Daniel Miller]

Unlimited subs only gives the appearance the game is played at a higher skill level and intensity level, because all players have fresh legs at all times. Players don't get a chance to test their skills with fatigued legs.

I disagree that playing with "fatigued legs" is an important aspect of development. Playing at high intensity and skill level always promotes development. So give me unlimited substitutions, please.

 

[Just a Parent]

Sorry Just A Parent, but it's true. And it's true here in So Cal. I have seen several DA matches (Not a lot, but some) that have not followed the USSDA rules as it relates to subs.

No, you haven't. Referees like to do these matches and the ones assigned to them are well beyond the threshold where such basic things as knowing or reviewing substitution rules is an issue. Besides, why would a referee of this caliber jeopardize their chances of further assignments by ignoring basic and easily enforceable fundamentals like substitution rules?

 

[Just a Parent]

They also say that the referee is to be familiar with these procedures. We are also told by our associations and assignors to monitor them. So we do. It's not difficult, although it would be easier if they adopted the card systems used by ECNL and other circuits.

In view of contradicting information on this and other issues in this specific league, I took the liberty of contacting the league head honcho directly. I carry her email with me stating coaches and not referees, are responsible for monitoring the reentries. Every now and then a coach would voice a complaint and I show them the email from the league.

 

[espola]

No, you haven't. Referees like to do these matches and the ones assigned to them are well beyond the threshold where such basic things as knowing or reviewing substitution rules is an issue. Besides, why would a referee of this caliber jeopardize their chances of further assignments by ignoring basic and easily enforceable fundamentals like substitution rules?

So, in spite of the fact that it happened, it didn't happen.

 

[timbuck]

I disagree that playing with "fatigued legs" is an important aspect of development. Playing at high intensity and skill level always promotes development. So give me unlimited substitutions, please.

Agreee. Especially for kids that have not finished puberty.
12-15 year olds should not be expected to increase their cardio endurance to a level where they can play hard for 80 minutes. Their lungs/heart can handle it, but their joints will have issues.
They'll be fine playing a full game once in a while, but if they start doing hardcore endurance training (ie- running 2-7+miles per day) without enough rest, you'll see overuse injuries.
That ACL problem in a 13 year old isn't the result of one game and just being unlucky. It's a build up of not enough rest/recovery.

 

[Just a Parent]

So, in spite of the fact that it happened, it didn't happen.

Where did it happen? Location, date and time.

No, it didn't happen.

 

[baldref]

In view of contradicting information on this and other issues in this specific league, I took the liberty of contacting the league head honcho directly. I carry her email with me stating coaches and not referees, are responsible for monitoring the reentries. Every now and then a coach would voice a complaint and I show them the email from the league.

All well and good. But as I said, it's not hard to do and I'm told to do it so I do. If I can "help" a coach that gets confused and tries to make a substitution that isn't allowable, then I shall

 

[Just a Parent]

All well and good. But as I said, it's not hard to do and I'm told to do it so I do. If I can "help" a coach that gets confused and tries to make a substitution that isn't allowable, then I shall

I agree. It's so easy to manage. But when the league tells me it is the coaches' responsibility, I leave it to the coaches.

 

[Laced]

Agreee. Especially for kids that have not finished puberty.
12-15 year olds should not be expected to increase their cardio endurance to a level where they can play hard for 80 minutes. Their lungs/heart can handle it, but their joints will have issues.
They'll be fine playing a full game once in a while, but if they start doing hardcore endurance training (ie- running 2-7+miles per day) without enough rest, you'll see overuse injuries.
That ACL problem in a 13 year old isn't the result of one game and just being unlucky. It's a build up of not enough rest/recovery.

There're rare exceptions, but all players are physically able to play full length games. Do you dispute that?

If a player is to play a full game, his/her form tends to deteriorate considerably toward the end of the game. Do you disagree?

 

[baldref]

I agree. It's so easy to manage. But when the league tells me it is the coaches' responsibility, I leave it to the coaches.

So should I not do what the two associations tell me and my assignors ask me to do?
that might be counter productive to me getting those games.
And I think we're splitting hairs, which is never productive for a bald man like myself.

 

[Just a Parent]

There're rare exceptions, but all players are physically able to play full length games. Do you dispute that?

If a player is to play a full game, his/her form tends to deteriorate considerably toward the end of the game. Do you disagree?

Yes.

 

[Just a Parent]

So should I not do what the two associations tell me and my assignors ask me to do?
that might be counter productive to me getting those games.
And I think we're splitting hairs, which is never productive for a bald man like myself.

You will have to make those decisions yourself. All I'm saying is that the league specifically says, in writing, that that's the coaches' responsibility and that I carry the evidence of that with me to show if necessary. I also have another email from the league, (albeit on a different topic), stating that the league has rules for a reason and that referees must enforce all of them even if they do not agree with them. I agree with that sentiment. I can point out several rules I do not agree with, but if I accept an assignment I must enforce all rules regardless of my opinion of them.

 

[baldref]

You will have to make those decisions yourself. All I'm saying is that the league specifically says, in writing, that that's the coaches' responsibility and that I carry the evidence of that with me to show if necessary. I also have another email from the league, (albeit on a different topic), stating that the league has rules for a reason and that referees must enforce all of them even if they do not agree with them. I agree with that sentiment. I can point out several rules I do not agree with, but if I accept an assignment I must enforce all rules regardless of my opinion of them.

Once again, splitting hairs but, I don't read the rules to say that the referee should not monitor the substitution procedure, so I don't feel I'm going against league policies, and at the same time satisfying my "supervisors" within the parameters of where I am assigned.
Hypothetically speaking, if an assessor knew only the league policy you carry, would the referee be nicked for enforcing the substitution policy if the coach attempted to circumvent and insisted it was not the referees business?

 

[Just a Parent]

Once again, splitting hairs but, I don't read the rules to say that the referee should not monitor the substitution procedure, so I don't feel I'm going against league policies, and at the same time satisfying my "supervisors" within the parameters of where I am assigned.
Hypothetically speaking, if an assessor knew only the league policy you carry, would the referee be nicked for enforcing the substitution policy if the coach attempted to circumvent and insisted it was not the referees business?

A good rule of thumb we try to teach referees is to do what competition rules/LOTG/procedure, etc. tell you to do and not create hypotheticals of what these do not prevent you from doing. In other words, keep it simple and straight forward.

But coming back to your specific question, if the referees' actions causes the game to deteriorate or brings other problems because of the argument created between him and the coach because of this issue, then yes, that will be an issue in the assessment. If not, then no issue. The question would then be, didn't you have other options other than to argue with the coach? Couldn't you include the fact that the coach was not following substitution procedures, provide the league with the evidence and move on?

 

[baldref]

A good rule of thumb we try to teach referees is to do what competition rules/LOTG/procedure, etc. tell you to do and not create hypotheticals of what these do not prevent you from doing. In other words, keep it simple and straight forward.

But coming back to your specific question, if the referees' actions causes the game to deteriorate or brings other problems because of the argument created between him and the coach because of this issue, then yes, that will be an issue in the assessment. If not, then no issue. The question would then be, didn't you have other options other than to argue with the coach? Couldn't you include the fact that the coach was not following substitution procedures, provide the league with the evidence and move on?

Yes
But I'm not sure that the competition rules tell me exactly that. As you said, the rules are ambiguous, as what is provided to the referees are the substitution procedures, not the clause in the full league rules that you had clarified by the league hierarchy.
Anyway, thank you for the answer.

 

[Surfref]

Where did it happen? Location, date and time.

No, it didn't happen.

Hate to say this, but it did happen. I was sitting 10 feet away when KM mentioned it and also mentioned that was the reason why that referee was no longer working DA games. Mistakes happen at all levels, but rarely at the higher levels.

You are correct that referees working DA games had better know the substitution rules. There is no reason for not getting the substitution rules correct no matter what league or level of game a referee is working. Part of game preparation and the pre-game should be substitution rule familiarization.

 

[espola]

Hate to say this, but it did happen. I was sitting 10 feet away when KM mentioned it and also mentioned that was the reason why that referee was no longer working DA games. Mistakes happen at all levels, but rarely at the higher levels.

You are correct that referees working DA games had better know the substitution rules. There is no reason for not getting the substitution rules correct no matter what league or level of game a referee is working. Part of game preparation and the pre-game should be substitution rule familiarization.

I never watched any DA games closely enough to track the substitutes, but I was the game organizer for a few years in USL Super-20 League games, which had a similar one-entry-per-half restriction. I sat at the scorer's table with a representative from the other team so that we could cross-check each other's game report forms, making sure that we got goals, fouls, cards, and substitutions credited to the correct players. As I have already stated, the better referees used the player card method, typically by moving a player's card from one stack to another as he entered the game. Some referees, however, didn't seem to care, and left substitutions entirely in the hands of the coaches.

 

[Just a Parent]

Hate to say this, but it did happen. I was sitting 10 feet away when KM mentioned it and also mentioned that was the reason why that referee was no longer working DA games. Mistakes happen at all levels, but rarely at the higher levels.

You are correct that referees working DA games had better know the substitution rules. There is no reason for not getting the substitution rules correct no matter what league or level of game a referee is working. Part of game preparation and the pre-game should be substitution rule familiarization.

Yes mistakes do happen, but at higher levels administrative mistakes are not excused. Every referee working DA games signs the league agreement before they are assigned. Substitution is the most basic of basics.

 

[espola]

Yes mistakes do happen, but at higher levels administrative mistakes are not excused. Every referee working DA games signs the league agreement before they are assigned. Substitution is the most basic of basics.

So it happened, but it didn't happen, but it does happen.

If a discussion comes down to a disagreement between JaP and anybody, I'm going with anybody.

 

[Just a Parent]

So it happened, but it didn't happen, but it does happen.

If a discussion comes down to a disagreement between JaP and anybody, I'm going with anybody.

Quote Bootizila, "The reality is that most of these sub rules are not followed by the match officals. This especially holds true in the scdsl. Yes in National cup, and the DA. But Ive seen a many of DA matches where the subs flowed freely and unlimited"

What location, date, time?