ref accountablity .

[charlie murphy]

Is there a method to make a ref accountable for HIS or HER actions on the field. Can one post video / highlight reel? Can one post names , faces , complements and offenses? Players are accountable for their actions during a game. Names and offences are posted in the league standings web site. One can go onto those pages and see who did what and when. However , with regard to the officiating of a game there is no such record of the refs officiating. We get on this forum and bitch about the refs from time to time. Maybe we are all just bitching about the same guy and giving all refs a bad name. I believe a good ref would not have issue with calling out sub par refs . Just as anyone in their job would not want to work with an under performing co worker. Why would a good official what to be paired with a sub standard partner? You know if your CR is lacking it is very likely you as the AR will get and earful. I have never seen an AR question a CR. You can go on YELP and get reviews of restaurants and local businesses. You may even chose to go to a restaurant, regardless. But at least you know what to expect. Maybe if you knew what to expect ref wise, Sh**Y or excellent, life on the field for the ref would be easier. you could take the info or leave it but at least you and an expectation. 'Don't expect much, I read the review, poorly reviewed ref or this should be a well officiated game I read the reviews on this guy/girl. I am writing after a win in a very poorly refed game. The ref should not be a center piece of any game discussion, a good ref is seldom seen yet in total control of play and keeping pace with the game. This is not what I saw today.

 

[charlie murphy]

It just gets worse, No this is what I should have expected from this guy. My expectation is just too high for this guy. I go to the bracket to check standings then check card standings / game report and this CR has the wrong player AND the wrong number listed as being carded . This ref IS not competent!

 

[coachrefparent]

What I have found as a parent, coach and referee, is that most descriptions of "poorly reffed" games boil down to 2-3 calls the referee missed, and 2-3 calls the complainer was wrong about the rules. As a coach this summer I have had to explain to opposing coaches on the same sideline who were going apoplectic, what the actual verbiage and interpretation of the laws are. They (usually) eventually admitted they didn't realize that was the rule. As a referee and parent, I hear the most ignorant comments from parents on the sidelines. Of course, there are bad referees that just are not good at what they do.

Anyone can post any public video of a public event and comment on it. To be fair, it should include a link to the full game so that we don't just see the missed calls and mistakes, which any reasonable person should expect to occur multiple times in a game by players, coaches and referees. Also, the person posting the video should let us all know who their son or daughter is so we can all point out their mistakes in gory detail.

 

[Jsmb]

1. I have seen referee during a summer tournament just before my kid played, call a game over after calling a foul inside the penalty box and awarding PK.
2. Watched refs call offside while player on his defense side of field.
3. Getting worse and seeing too many refs unable or unwilling to actual hustle and not stay around the center pitch.

 

[Eagle33]

Is there a method to make a ref accountable for HIS or HER actions on the field. Can one post video / highlight reel? Can one post names , faces , complements and offenses? Players are accountable for their actions during a game. Names and offences are posted in the league standings web site. One can go onto those pages and see who did what and when. However , with regard to the officiating of a game there is no such record of the refs officiating. We get on this forum and bitch about the refs from time to time. Maybe we are all just bitching about the same guy and giving all refs a bad name. I believe a good ref would not have issue with calling out sub par refs . Just as anyone in their job would not want to work with an under performing co worker. Why would a good official what to be paired with a sub standard partner? You know if your CR is lacking it is very likely you as the AR will get and earful. I have never seen an AR question a CR. You can go on YELP and get reviews of restaurants and local businesses. You may even chose to go to a restaurant, regardless. But at least you know what to expect. Maybe if you knew what to expect ref wise, Sh**Y or excellent, life on the field for the ref would be easier. you could take the info or leave it but at least you and an expectation. 'Don't expect much, I read the review, poorly reviewed ref or this should be a well officiated game I read the reviews on this guy/girl. I am writing after a win in a very poorly refed game. The ref should not be a center piece of any game discussion, a good ref is seldom seen yet in total control of play and keeping pace with the game. This is not what I saw today.

Do you have a video? Is your team lost a game?

 

[timbuck]

There is a referee problem in So Cal. But I don't think competency is the issue. It's volume. There are so many leagues, clubs and teams out there now. But I don't think the number of refereees has increased proportionally.
Why would someone want to become a referee? Run around for 60-90 minutes for $40 while getting yelled at by So Cal parents?

We need more referees. What is Cal-South doing to help with this problem? Are we at a point where it needs to be like AYSO and they mandate that each team has a few certified referees?
Not only would this increase the referee population, but it might even educate more parents on the laws of the game.

 

[Eagle33]

There is a referee problem in So Cal. But I don't think competency is the issue. It's volume. There are so many leagues, clubs and teams out there now. But I don't think the number of refereees has increased proportionally.
Why would someone want to become a referee? Run around for 60-90 minutes for $40 while getting yelled at by So Cal parents?

We need more referees. What is Cal-South doing to help with this problem? Are we at a point where it needs to be like AYSO and they mandate that each team has a few certified referees?
Not only would this increase the referee population, but it might even educate more parents on the laws of the game.

Years back I think CSL was doing it - requiring teams to have referees and do certain amount of games. I'm not sure if they ever followed up with that or continue to do so.

 

[Striker17]

What I have found as a parent, coach and referee, is that most descriptions of "poorly reffed" games boil down to 2-3 calls the referee missed, and 2-3 calls the complainer was wrong about the rules. As a coach this summer I have had to explain to opposing coaches on the same sideline who were going apoplectic, what the actual verbiage and interpretation of the laws are. They (usually) eventually admitted they didn't realize that was the rule. As a referee and parent, I hear the most ignorant comments from parents on the sidelines. Of course, there are bad referees that just are not good at what they do.

Anyone can post any public video of a public event and comment on it. To be fair, it should include a link to the full game so that we don't just see the missed calls and mistakes, which any reasonable person should expect to occur multiple times in a game by players, coaches and referees. Also, the person posting the video should let us all know who their son or daughter is so we can all point out their mistakes in gory detail.

Great post. I missed a game last week where there as apparently "bad Reffing". I was emotionally removed so when I reviewed the tape where a parent had listed each "offense" I had to keep rewinding because I did not see what the parent was concerned about.
Great post!

 

[charlie murphy]

What I have found as a parent, coach and referee, is that most descriptions of "poorly reffed" games boil down to 2-3 calls the referee missed, and 2-3 calls the complainer was wrong about the rules. As a coach this summer I have had to explain to opposing coaches on the same sideline who were going apoplectic, what the actual verbiage and interpretation of the laws are. They (usually) eventually admitted they didn't realize that was the rule. As a referee and parent, I hear the most ignorant comments from parents on the sidelines. Of course, there are bad referees that just are not good at what they do.

Anyone can post any public video of a public event and comment on it. To be fair, it should include a link to the full game so that we don't just see the missed calls and mistakes, which any reasonable person should expect to occur multiple times in a game by players, coaches and referees. Also, the person posting the video should let us all know who their son or daughter is so we can all point out their mistakes in gory detail.

You have some good points here :
1) full game video do exist. There are more and more "companies " each weekend setting up the overhead / boom video systems. Perhaps part of the cost of "doing business " at these fields is for the company to make one "gratis" copy of the video and submit it to league officials. The videos could be chosen at random and ref evaluation could be performed. As the season progresses the best refs could be asked to officiate games in playoffs , while under performers could be encouraged to refine their trade under the supervision of more seasoned officials or directed the age groups that are more appropriate to their level.
2) we all realize that a ref will not see everything on the field but we expect basic calls to be made and keeping up with the pace of the game. We expect control of the game without being controlling. We expect win or lose that the discussion after the game is not about the officiating .
3) I am not sure that posting video and identify players is in the benefit of anyone. Why would one "let us all know who their son or daughter is so we all can point out their mistakes in gory detail". The point is to evaluate the Job for which one is being paid to do. A public forum is not the place to "evaluate" a person's competencies. I am sure that ref associations have the personal to evaluate their members. Your point is spot on the full game video. It does exist, the tool just has to be used . If the ref association truly wanted to make their members and the sport in southern California the best It can be then use the full game video as you suggest.

 

[charlie murphy]

Do you have a video? Is your team lost a game?

Video does exist and no we did not "lost" the game . we won. I was always taught that is you win you want to beat someone at their best .
With the officiating I saw no team could be at their best. A wins are not the same.

 

[Mystery Train]

There is a referee problem in So Cal. But I don't think competency is the issue. It's volume. There are so many leagues, clubs and teams out there now. But I don't think the number of refereees has increased proportionally.
Why would someone want to become a referee? Run around for 60-90 minutes for $40 while getting yelled at by So Cal parents?

We need more referees. What is Cal-South doing to help with this problem? Are we at a point where it needs to be like AYSO and they mandate that each team has a few certified referees?
Not only would this increase the referee population, but it might even educate more parents on the laws of the game.

Good idea. There is definitely a small pool of people willing to put themselves out there. One sure fire way to cut down on parents complaining about refs is to have them take a ref course and try to AR a few U10-U12 games. Most people have no idea how hard it is. Not to take away from the OP's point here, because there are bad refs out there who make the game about themselves. I do believe there is a system of accountability within the referee associations.

 

[watfly]

I don't think publicly shaming a ref with a video is appropriate. Let the gaming league and the ref association handle the matter although they don't have a great track record for doing so. I think that if both coaches or DOC's file a complaint that hopefully that will carry more weight than just the losing coach filing a complaint.

We had a ref yesterday (no AR's) that had no business being on the field. For a couple of reasons he did not have the physical ability to even come close to keeping up with the 9v9 play. He had to guess at offsides and out of bounds. Our goalie was cleated in the head drawing blood (and ending his day) with no call, among other high cleat and dangerous play no calls. He allowed the opposing coach to scream, chastise and demean his players the entire game. It appeared that he "allowed" both coaches to call fouls. His lack of ability created a serious safety issue. In the first half he allowed heading and the 2nd half he didn't because he said the rule was new to him. After the game he said that his eyes couldn't keep up with the speed of play. The whole situation was just an ugly example of youth soccer. Shame on the ref association for even allowing this ref to be assigned to a game.

BTW does SCDSL not require a 3 ref crew for 9v9?

 

[Eagle33]

BTW does SCDSL not require a 3 ref crew for 9v9?

I don't think leagues require anything. For all I know you could have 1 ref doing U19 game. I believe it's the referee associations who provide and assign referees. Some associations think that 9v9 is needing 3 referees and some think they only need 1. Also with shortage of referees all around, I'm not surprised with seeing 1 ref on 7v7 or 9v9 games. Whether ref is capable doing this games by him/herself is a different issue. Some do and some don't. Just like some coaches can coach and some can't, and some players can play and some shouldn't.

 

[coachrefparent]

I don't think leagues require anything. For all I know you could have 1 ref doing U19 game. I believe it's the referee associations who provide and assign referees. Some associations think that 9v9 is needing 3 referees and some think they only need 1. Also with shortage of referees all around, I'm not surprised with seeing 1 ref on 7v7 or 9v9 games. Whether ref is capable doing this games by him/herself is a different issue. Some do and some don't. Just like some coaches can coach and some can't, and some players can play and some shouldn't.

I don't think this is accurate at all. I know the league in which I coach and referee requires the club to procure and pay for a minimum number of referees per game, which is 3 at 9v9.

 

[coachrefparent]

I don't think publicly shaming a ref with a video is appropriate. Let the gaming league and the ref association handle the matter although they don't have a great track record for doing so. I think that if both coaches or DOC's file a complaint that hopefully that will carry more weight than just the losing coach filing a complaint.

We had a ref yesterday (no AR's) that had no business being on the field. For a couple of reasons he did not have the physical ability to even come close to keeping up with the 9v9 play. He had to guess at offsides and out of bounds. Our goalie was cleated in the head drawing blood (and ending his day) with no call, among other high cleat and dangerous play no calls. He allowed the opposing coach to scream, chastise and demean his players the entire game. It appeared that he "allowed" both coaches to call fouls. His lack of ability created a serious safety issue. In the first half he allowed heading and the 2nd half he didn't because he said the rule was new to him. After the game he said that his eyes couldn't keep up with the speed of play. The whole situation was just an ugly example of youth soccer. Shame on the ref association for even allowing this ref to be assigned to a game.

BTW does SCDSL not require a 3 ref crew for 9v9?

My point is that in a majority of instances, the posting of a game video with the claim that the refereeing was "horrible" or "poor", etc., will actually shame the person who made the claim,

 

[MWN]

@charlie murphy,

To answer your basic question, as a parent there is no recourse. Your coach is empowered to report the referee to the Assigning Association and League, who will want the entire game video and a full description of the misconduct.

That said, the referee associations truly want to put the appropriate referees on the field. Every month, my association holds a monthly meeting and we go over the Cal South's Referee Program's video/lesson plan. Cal South put's out these lessons and focuses on a different topic or area of emphasis each month. Referees are asked to attend 3-6 meetings a year and also attend additional more advanced training depending on grade level of referee.

The local associations have two problems: (1) not enough qualified and experienced referees; and (2) certain politically connected associations/assignors that take the local associations "better" referees for certain leagues, these assignors also assign HS and college games so referees that do this as a major source of income feel compelled to stay in the good graces of these associations/assignors.

As a result, some weekends the already stretched thin referee associations are putting referees that are not as experienced or qualified on games that maybe those referees shouldn't be on AND referees are getting 4 games per day. I can tell you as an older guy, 3 U15+ games is my limit and I should probably only do 2 games, by the 3rd game I have been on my feet, standing, jogging, sprinting (if you can call it that), jogging, walking, some more sprinting, walking, etc. for nearly 5 hours in the heat. My feet are killing me, I'm sweaty, haven't peed all day, my water is gone, my Powerades are gone, I haven't really eaten because the league scheduled these game 10 minutes apart, I'm sore and ready for a beer or two or seven.

When we get to the higher level olders (U15 - CSL Premiere/Gold, SCDSL Flight 1 (and even flight 2)), these crews are pushed hard. The center referee will typically run about 3-4 miles per game (FIFA referees run 12 miles per game /5x more than the players). A youth competitive crew will work 3-4 games per day, with each referee switching off as Center.

What I witnessed this weekend was my referee Association didn't have enough referees to cover all the games. It begged, pleaded and borrowed what it could get. I was assigned 1 game (center) and asked to find my own ARs (make some calls to the Recreational ranks). The kids I got were green and new, didn't know the rules like they should (called offside on a throw-in, which I waved off) ... but heck, at least I had some AR's. My next game 15 minutes later, I joined a crew that already had 2 games under the belt and was dragging.

The reason our Association don't have enough referees is simple, we lose 1/2 our youth referees after their 1st year because of ASSHOLE (I'm not filtering this word) PARENTS and COACHES. These piece of crap parents and coaches think they have the right to challenge and chastise and otherwise be assholes to our young referees. So, rather than putting up with the abuse they quit or simply refuse to referee certain games and go back to the Rec ranks.

What is also pathetic is the complete and total lack of effort these parents and coaches put into learning the freaking rules. I had one parent smuggly shout out to me after his team's player was fouled "You can use your whistle Ref." I didn't blow my whistle ... why? Let's see ... I called advantage ... play on, his team still had the ball at the top of the 18 and actually took a shot on goal 4-5 passes later. Dumbass. This parent's daughter was on a CSL Gold U17 team and this guy has watched how many freaking games and still doesn't know the rules? Amazing, but this is what we have to deal with.

Can I do better as a Referee, absolutely. Will I miss certain calls because my view was blocked by a Player or the action was away from the foul and I didn't see the foul from my position ... every game. Will I be out of position because I can't run as fast as I used to and I anticipated the direction of play incorrectly? Yes, frequently.

So for those of you that believe you can do better, click here:
http://www.calsouth.com/en/referees/how-to-be/

 

[Mystery Train]

@charlie murphy,

To answer your basic question, as a parent there is no recourse. Your coach is empowered to report the referee to the Assigning Association and League, who will want the entire game video and a full description of the misconduct.

That said, the referee associations truly want to put the appropriate referees on the field. Every month, my association holds a monthly meeting and we go over the Cal South's Referee Program's video/lesson plan. Cal South put's out these lessons and focuses on a different topic or area of emphasis each month. Referees are asked to attend 3-6 meetings a year and also attend additional more advanced training depending on grade level of referee.

The local associations have two problems: (1) not enough qualified and experienced referees; and (2) certain politically connected associations/assignors that take the local associations "better" referees for certain leagues, these assignors also assign HS and college games so referees that do this as a major source of income feel compelled to stay in the good graces of these associations/assignors.

As a result, some weekends the already stretched thin referee associations are putting referees that are not as experienced or qualified on games that maybe those referees shouldn't be on AND referees are getting 4 games per day. I can tell you as an older guy, 3 U15+ games is my limit and I should probably only do 2 games, by the 3rd game I have been on my feet, standing, jogging, sprinting (if you can call it that), jogging, walking, some more sprinting, walking, etc. for nearly 5 hours in the heat. My feet are killing me, I'm sweaty, haven't peed all day, my water is gone, my Powerades are gone, I haven't really eaten because the league scheduled these game 10 minutes apart, I'm sore and ready for a beer or two or seven.

When we get to the higher level olders (U15 - CSL Premiere/Gold, SCDSL Flight 1 (and even flight 2)), these crews are pushed hard. The center referee will typically run about 3-4 miles per game (FIFA referees run 12 miles per game /5x more than the players). A youth competitive crew will work 3-4 games per day, with each referee switching off as Center.

What I witnessed this weekend was my referee Association didn't have enough referees to cover all the games. It begged, pleaded and borrowed what it could get. I was assigned 1 game (center) and asked to find my own ARs (make some calls to the Recreational ranks). The kids I got were green and new, didn't know the rules like they should (called offside on a throw-in, which I waved off) ... but heck, at least I had some AR's. My next game 15 minutes later, I joined a crew that already had 2 games under the belt and was dragging.

The reason our Association don't have enough referees is simple, we lose 1/2 our youth referees after their 1st year because of ASSHOLE (I'm not filtering this word) PARENTS and COACHES. These piece of crap parents and coaches think they have the right to challenge and chastise and otherwise be assholes to our young referees. So, rather than putting up with the abuse they quit or simply refuse to referee certain games and go back to the Rec ranks.

What is also pathetic is the complete and total lack of effort these parents and coaches put into learning the freaking rules. I had one parent smuggly shout out to me after his team's player was fouled "You can use your whistle Ref." I didn't blow my whistle ... why? Let's see ... I called advantage ... play on, his team still had the ball at the top of the 18 and actually took a shot on goal 4-5 passes later. Dumbass. This parent's daughter was on a CSL Gold U17 team and this guy has watched how many freaking games and still doesn't know the rules? Amazing, but this is what we have to deal with.

Can I do better as a Referee, absolutely. Will I miss certain calls because my view was blocked by a Player or the action was away from the foul and I didn't see the foul from my position ... every game. Will I be out of position because I can't run as fast as I used to and I anticipated the direction of play incorrectly? Yes, frequently.

So for those of you that believe you can do better, click here:
http://www.calsouth.com/en/referees/how-to-be/

Great post. I never thought about the fatigue factor of reffing 3 games with no breaks. 12 miles a game for FIFA refs? Impressive.

 

[Eagle33]

I don't think this is accurate at all. I know the league in which I coach and referee requires the club to procure and pay for a minimum number of referees per game, which is 3 at 9v9.

You don't think or you know this for a fact? If you do know, please attach a document that proves your knowledge.

 

[mirage]

It just gets worse, No this is what I should have expected from this guy. My expectation is just too high for this guy. I go to the bracket to check standings then check card standings / game report and this CR has the wrong player AND the wrong number listed as being carded . This ref IS not competent!

So you had a bad ref at the game.... I know its frustrating and can ruin the game but it happens.

Just take a step back and look at the whole big picture though.
1) its just one of the league games - kids game, remind you.

2) sounds like your kid's team won inspire of bad ref'ing - silver lining is that its a learning moment of the players to deal with human errors in the game - bad officiating happens in EVEY sports.

3) "the system" will essentially do nothing - this is not the World Cup and refs don't get banned as a result of bad calls.

4) If we got all worked up about every incompetent acts by workers we encounter in everyday life, (yes refs are workers on the field), then our blood pressure would stay over 160/120 constantly.

Hope you feel bit better for venting but lets not lose perspective on the whole thing.

I'm sure your next game will be better.....

Happy Monday,
Cheers!

 

[timbuck]

I don't think leagues require anything. For all I know you could have 1 ref doing U19 game. I believe it's the referee associations who provide and assign referees. Some associations think that 9v9 is needing 3 referees and some think they only need 1. Also with shortage of referees all around, I'm not surprised with seeing 1 ref on 7v7 or 9v9 games. Whether ref is capable doing this games by him/herself is a different issue. Some do and some don't. Just like some coaches can coach and some can't, and some players can play and some shouldn't.

I saw something regarding number of refs per game from the league, but I can't find it in my emails. If I recall, it said something to the effect of "Some games in further away locations may only have 1 referee. Sorry. It is what it is."