Protect the players

[Grace T.]

I heard coaches asking refs to protect the players just last weekend. Of course they wanted it to trigger a response. The response they wanted was for the ref to start calling the dangerous contact before another kid gets hurt.

“Polly wants a cracker.”??? More than a little insulting. Remember that, as referees, you and I never hear if and when a kid gets injured in one of our games. That parent you mock as being nothing more than a parrot? They are the one who has to talk to the doctor about surgery options after the MRI. You and I don’t.

I had the same experience this weekend. There was progressively dangerous contact that led to an injury needing to be seen.

The bottom line is that promotion and winning games is everything in the system we have set up. Soccer is a game about mistakes and making hard contact is a way of creating those mistakes leading to opportunities (or preventing them). As a result, a lot of coaches (rather than teach build up of play or tactics) rely on physical play to get the win-- it's quicker than teaching proper tactics which might take years you don't have as players cycle through the program and/or which the players can't handle at their present skill level. They hand a tool to kids who because of their development and because they are learning they have no means of reigning in or determining how much contact is appropriate. And the incentives aren't there for the coach to reign them in, because worst case he/she ruins a super aggressive player or best case might cost the team the game in a sport which is marked by victories of 1 point among single digits.

Which means the only person left to enforce safety is the ref, which is the unfortunately reality.

 

[GoldenGate]

I had the same experience this weekend. There was progressively dangerous contact that led to an injury needing to be seen.

The bottom line is that promotion and winning games is everything in the system we have set up. Soccer is a game about mistakes and making hard contact is a way of creating those mistakes leading to opportunities (or preventing them). As a result, a lot of coaches (rather than teach build up of play or tactics) rely on physical play to get the win-- it's quicker than teaching proper tactics which might take years you don't have as players cycle through the program and/or which the players can't handle at their present skill level. They hand a tool to kids who because of their development and because they are learning they have no means of reigning in or determining how much contact is appropriate. And the incentives aren't there for the coach to reign them in, because worst case he/she ruins a super aggressive player or best case might cost the team the game in a sport which is marked by victories of 1 point among single digits.

Which means the only person left to enforce safety is the ref, which is the unfortunately reality.

What do you think crush? Grace T. seems to be saying that parents chasing a "national championship" for their 11 year old children is a really f**king stupid idea and bad for long term development. Are you going to let her get away with that?

 

[lafalafa]

I had the same experience this weekend. There was progressively dangerous contact that led to an injury needing to be seen.

The bottom line is that promotion and winning games is everything in the system we have set up. Soccer is a game about mistakes and making hard contact is a way of creating those mistakes leading to opportunities (or preventing them). As a result, a lot of coaches (rather than teach build up of play or tactics) rely on physical play to get the win-- it's quicker than teaching proper tactics which might take years you don't have as players cycle through the program and/or which the players can't handle at their present skill level. They hand a tool to kids who because of their development and because they are learning they have no means of reigning in or determining how much contact is appropriate. And the incentives aren't there for the coach to reign them in, because worst case he/she ruins a super aggressive player or best case might cost the team the game in a sport which is marked by victories of 1 point among single digits.

Which means the only person left to enforce safety is the ref, which is the unfortunately reality.

What was the injury?

Have you ever looked at sports injury stats for teens or kids in the USA?

65% of youth sports related injuries happened during practice.

Soccer has about the same amount of kids under 14 at emergency rooms as do those that have trampoline related injuries. Bicycling has 3x as many injuries as soccer. Baseball, softball, football, skateboarding all have more for the 14 or less crowd.

Referees, coaches, trainers, parents all can take part in injury prevention. If your relying on a refree to do them all that could be a problem.

The only injuries that any of my kids experienced that required hospital or emergency visits where out side of soccer and they played more soccer than anything else by far. Just saying.

 

[baldref]

What do you think crush? Grace T. seems to be saying that parents chasing a "national championship" for their 11 year old children is a really f**king stupid idea and bad for long term development. Are you going to let her get away with that?

What a Pathetic little person you are. It must really suck being that full of hate. I feel sorry for you

 

[Grace T.]

Referees, coaches, trainers, parents all can take part in injury prevention. If your relying on a refree to do them all that could be a problem.

But that's where we are at. Coaches won't do it, because they are incentivized not to. The coach with the overly aggressive team has no incentive to put on the breaks because it may cost him the wins. The other coach (other than yelling at the ref or telling the kids to foul back [which is where the entire game out of control thing starts]) can't really do anything because there isn't some central authority monitoring this stuff and they'll get punished for pulling out their team.

The OP's post is about the parents. What's the parent's remedy? Yell at the ref? I thought we didn't want them doing that. So what's left is to pull your kid (which also has consequences)?

So the refs kinda all we have.

Saying soccer is the same as a trampoline isn't really reassuring. It would be expected that bicycles, football and baseball would all have greater injuries. You gotta deal with expectations as well. On the boys end, remember, many of them aren't playing football because of the injury stuff. I think we all understand that soccer is a contact sport, and that in contact sports injuries happen. No one is saying no injuries. No one is saying no contact. But soccer is also game of rules, and fouls are part of the laws of the game. The objection is when referees ignore the laws of the tame and fail to call non-trifling fouls, or allow games to spin out of control due to poor management or early fouls, either because they are incapable of making the calls, or believe in "let them play".

 

[lafalafa]

But that's where we are at. Coaches won't do it, because they are incentivized not to. The coach with the overly aggressive team has no incentive to put on the breaks because it may cost him the wins. The other coach (other than yelling at the ref or telling the kids to foul back [which is where the entire game out of control thing starts]) can't really do anything because there isn't some central authority monitoring this stuff and they'll get punished for pulling out their team.

The OP's post is about the parents. What's the parent's remedy? Yell at the ref? I thought we didn't want them doing that. So what's left is to pull your kid (which also has consequences)?

So the refs kinda all we have.

Saying soccer is the same as a trampoline isn't really reassuring. It would be expected that bicycles, football and baseball would all have greater injuries. You gotta deal with expectations as well. On the boys end, remember, many of them aren't playing football because of the injury stuff. I think we all understand that soccer is a contact sport, and that in contact sports injuries happen. No one is saying no injuries. No one is saying no contact. But soccer is also game of rules, and fouls are part of the laws of the game. The objection is when referees ignore the laws of the tame and fail to call non-trifling fouls, or allow games to spin out of control due to poor management or early fouls, either because they are incapable of making the calls, or believe in "let them play".

Oh wow guess things have degraded or changed somewhat from my kids youth playing days.

Not sure when/if a change happen but you rarely had talk or news about youth soccer officiating that I recall until the last few years,.maybe the explosion of social media had something to do with it?

Curious seems to be a weekly topic on this board about some game, call, shortage, style.

So what can be done now to improve things beyond more numbers?

 

[dad4]

But that's where we are at. Coaches won't do it, because they are incentivized not to. The coach with the overly aggressive team has no incentive to put on the breaks because it may cost him the wins. The other coach (other than yelling at the ref or telling the kids to foul back [which is where the entire game out of control thing starts]) can't really do anything because there isn't some central authority monitoring this stuff and they'll get punished for pulling out their team.

The OP's post is about the parents. What's the parent's remedy? Yell at the ref? I thought we didn't want them doing that. So what's left is to pull your kid (which also has consequences)?

So the refs kinda all we have.

Saying soccer is the same as a trampoline isn't really reassuring. It would be expected that bicycles, football and baseball would all have greater injuries. You gotta deal with expectations as well. On the boys end, remember, many of them aren't playing football because of the injury stuff. I think we all understand that soccer is a contact sport, and that in contact sports injuries happen. No one is saying no injuries. No one is saying no contact. But soccer is also game of rules, and fouls are part of the laws of the game. The objection is when referees ignore the laws of the tame and fail to call non-trifling fouls, or allow games to spin out of control due to poor management or early fouls, either because they are incapable of making the calls, or believe in "let them play".

The remedy? More of us get out there and try to be good referees.

It’s long term, but I don’t see what else would work.

 

[Grace T.]

Oh wow guess things have degraded or changed somewhat from my kids youth playing days.

Not sure when/if a change happen but you rarely had talk or news about youth soccer officiating that I recall until the last few years,.maybe the explosion of social media had something to do with it?

Curious seems to be a weekly topic on this board about some game, call, shortage, style.

So what can be done now to improve things beyond more numbers?

Well, unless we pay the refs a whole lot more we aren't going to get better refs. Which means that we can expect more coach/parent conflict with the refs in the future.

This didn't used to be a problem because there weren't so many teams trying to reach competitive higher levels in the past (since there weren't as many clubs and you didn't have every bronze level coach wanting to get promotion so that he can keep his job and the parents happy....keeping the parents happy has also been racheted up because of what's going on in colleges and that they are just much more competitive than they were when I went in and applied). This also isn't as much of a problem in Europe, if everyone plays rec that wins just aren't as important and the really good refs are all tied up in the academy games....yes I think social media has also contributed to the toxic mix since Europe isn't free of this stuff either, but it is better there.

It's just a poisonous cocktail of pay to play, refs responding to incentives to get promotions, social media crassness which has entered society, and the expectations set by college and college recruiting. There are other remedies but they involve basically deconstructing the clubs as they exist now and having the national orgs be more hands on in management of this stuff, which no one in the system really wants.

 

[whatithink]

But that's where we are at. Coaches won't do it, because they are incentivized not to. The coach with the overly aggressive team has no incentive to put on the breaks because it may cost him the wins. The other coach (other than yelling at the ref or telling the kids to foul back [which is where the entire game out of control thing starts]) can't really do anything because there isn't some central authority monitoring this stuff and they'll get punished for pulling out their team.

The OP's post is about the parents. What's the parent's remedy? Yell at the ref? I thought we didn't want them doing that. So what's left is to pull your kid (which also has consequences)?

So the refs kinda all we have.

Saying soccer is the same as a trampoline isn't really reassuring. It would be expected that bicycles, football and baseball would all have greater injuries. You gotta deal with expectations as well. On the boys end, remember, many of them aren't playing football because of the injury stuff. I think we all understand that soccer is a contact sport, and that in contact sports injuries happen. No one is saying no injuries. No one is saying no contact. But soccer is also game of rules, and fouls are part of the laws of the game. The objection is when referees ignore the laws of the tame and fail to call non-trifling fouls, or allow games to spin out of control due to poor management or early fouls, either because they are incapable of making the calls, or believe in "let them play".

Agree with you here. I watched a U17 boys game this weekend past. Early in the 1st half a kid went in studs up maybe 18" off the ground and caught another kid who was kicking the ball. It was a red card. There wasn't even a foul called. The injured kid was out for the rest of the game, and may miss some time depending on the severity of the injury.

The ref started to issue some yellows as the game slowly descended into uglier tackles, and ended up with a straight red for each side, both for "tackles" which could have caused serious injury (but didn't). The ref "called" the game 5 minutes early ... as he felt it was getting out of control!!!

The only reason it got to that stage was the ref. That said, neither coach did anything to temper the way their teams were playing (at that point), not that it would have mattered to 22 15/16 year old boys on the field who were ramped up at that point.

The refs check the cards and can talk to both teams before a game, they can clearly state to the coach and players how they will ref the game at that time. They should follow the rules and call the fouls, carding or sending off if warranted. The above game should have been easy to ref. U17 boys will be robust & physical, but there's no reason for it to be dangerous if ref'd correctly. The boys know how to play to the ref and if he/she is "letting it flow" then the boys will push and push to see where the boundary is.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

Ref pay isn't the problem. It's parents and coaches that treat them badly and make them quit or not want to come back after a life-changing pandemic. Yes, there may be the extreme example of a very bad ref that needs to be reported, but I see ref abuse every game from parents and coaches that need to be controlled by the league. Start sending representatives out to the games to start warning the abusers.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

The only reason it got to that stage was the ref. That said, neither coach did anything to temper the way their teams were playing (at that point), not that it would have mattered to 22 15/16 year old boys on the field who were ramped up at that point.

"the only reason...was the ref". Seriously? If my kid started playing like that they would be pulled off the field immediately. Either when I'm coaching, or when I'm the parent.

 

[whatithink]

"the only reason...was the ref". Seriously? If my kid started playing like that they would be pulled off the field immediately. Either when I'm coaching, or when I'm the parent.

If the ref had applied the rules correctly from the start, which he was being paid to do, then it would not have gotten to that point. So, yeah, its on the ref.

 

[Frank]

If the ref had applied the rules correctly from the start, which he was being paid to do, then it would not have gotten to that point. So, yeah, its on the ref.

You got it right; the player, coaches and parents have no responsibility. It is the person that has never met them and is around 22 of them for 90 minutes. Finally some sanity on this board........

 

[espola]

Back when my kids were playing, there were 2 extremes embodied by Lee Popejoy (who no one ever yelled at because he was always right) and Dr. A, who no one ever yelled at twice (some of you know what that means).

Dr. A, BTW, was the only ref I ever saw dismissed from a tournament assignment because he wouldn't do what the TD wanted him to do.

 

[Grace T.]

You got it right; the player, coaches and parents have no responsibility. It is the person that has never met them and is around 22 of them for 90 minutes. Finally some sanity on this board........

Of course they have responsibility, but you can make policy on the assumption that people (or in this case teenagers or preteenagers or know nothing little kids learning to play the game and being told instructions by the adults) are angels or you can make policy on the assumption that there are real human beings there. The parents of the offending player are probably cheering on the tackler for his/her toughness and winning the game. The coach isn't going to say boo for fear of losing the game. It's the incentives we created. To think people are going to rise above the incentives just because they are good and responsible people is ignoring the realities of the situation.

 

[baldref]

Back when my kids were playing, there were 2 extremes embodied by Lee Popejoy (who no one ever yelled at because he was always right) and Dr. A, who no one ever yelled at twice (some of you know what that means).

Dr. A, BTW, was the only ref I ever saw dismissed from a tournament assignment because he wouldn't do what the TD wanted him to do.

neither one them has reffed for 30 years. Way to stay pertinent

 

[espola]

neither one them has reffed for 30 years. Way to stay pertinent

My kids aren't that old, and Dr. A was doing high school games after they graduated -- I know that because he told me how to pronounce his name in the pre-game introductions when I was working the HS pressbox up until 2016. His issue with the tournament director occurred when my older son was coaching, so that is within the last 12 years.

 

[bossman]

Maybe each youth team needs to recruit their own Dennis Rodman to do damage control when the ref won't. This is not ideal and can obviously escalate into a dangerous cycle of injuries.

 

[watfly]

In the last 7 years I've seen maybe 3 games where games got out of control and were dangerous. One was just a bad ref, another was an elderly ref that admitted the game was too fast for his eyes and one was against an English team in Sweden. I personally don't think we have an epidemic of refs not protecting the players, maybe your experience is different. We do have an epidemic of shortage of refs.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say IMHO some refs tend to call too many fouls. I believe we have too many stoppages in play. From my perspective if the foul didn't really impact play, why call it. Soccer is a contact sport and while my son is disadvantaged by rough play due to his size, it will ultimately make him a better player.

Small sample, but when we were at Gothia Cup in Sweden, the refs called far fewer fouls than their American counterparts. I spoke to a couple and they said they are taught to err on the side of maintaining play as opposed to calling fouls. SoCal parents would come unglued at this type of officiating, I know I did at first but came to appreciate it by the end of the tournament.

I say come down harder on the truly dangerous and flagrant fouls and play on with other fouls. My pet peeve, which granted has nothing to do with physical play, is when refs call foul throw-ins. 99 times out of 100 they are trifling at best and 100 times out of 100 that throw in provides no advantage to the attacking team.

I don't pretend to be the perfect sideline parent, and I don't think we should just be appreciative of a ref that just shows up but puts no effort into his job, but given the shortage of refs we should appreciate the refs that show up and put in the effort. Whether they are perfect or not. (I'll try my best to remember to do that myself )

 

[Grace T.]

In the last 7 years I've seen maybe 3 games where games got out of control and were dangerous. One was just a bad ref, another was an elderly ref that admitted the game was too fast for his eyes and one was against an English team in Sweden. I personally don't think we have an epidemic of refs not protecting the players, maybe your experience is different. We do have an epidemic of shortage of refs.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say IMHO some refs tend to call too many fouls. I believe we have too many stoppages in play. From my perspective if the foul didn't really impact play, why call it. Soccer is a contact sport and while my son is disadvantaged by rough play due to his size, it will ultimately make him a better player.

Small sample, but when we were at Gothia Cup in Sweden, the refs called far fewer fouls than their American counterparts. I spoke to a couple and they said they are taught to err on the side of maintaining play as opposed to calling fouls. SoCal parents would come unglued at this type of officiating, I know I did at first but came to appreciate it by the end of the tournament.

I say come down harder on the truly dangerous and flagrant fouls and play on with other fouls. My pet peeve, which granted has nothing to do with physical play, is when refs call foul throw-ins. 99 times out of 100 they are trifling at best and 100 times out of 100 that throw in provides no advantage to the attacking team.

I don't pretend to be the perfect sideline parent, and I don't think we should just be appreciative of a ref that just shows up but puts no effort into his job, but given the shortage of refs we should appreciate the refs that show up and put in the effort. Whether they are perfect or not. (I'll try my best to remember to do that myself )

The problem with letting the lower level (but not trifling) fouls go early on is that the refs can lose control of the game really quickly. The players (and coaches) will test the boundaries of how far the ref is going to let it slide and will start pushing things tit-for-tat against each other until finally you have a bad foul. Most refs aren't equipped to manage that situation (heck some refs aren't even physically fit enough to properly officiate the game). You need a pretty experienced ref to know how to manage that properly....which means you can let some of that slide more in the higher levels than in a U11 boys bronze game where the 2 coaches are desperate to earn a promotion or trophy....the more experienced refs get the higher level games. I would expect far fewer fouls to be called at the Gothia Cup in Sweden or an EPL academy game than in a U12 Coast boys silver game. In fact, I think too many fouls are called on the professional level such as handball (I like the new revisions) or a goalkeeper coming off the line prematurely on a PK or even contact fouls.