Protect the players

espola said:
College refs may do high school and club games, but most of the HS and club refs don't do college games.
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Speaking of College soccer. The Men’s Division 1 Semi between Clemson and Notre Dame was a really good game. Went to PKs and Clemson won. The Clemson keeper had an amazing game. Final is today with Clemson and Washington.

www.ncaa.com

Clemson defeats Notre Dame in PK shootout finish to advance to College Cup final

Clemson and Notre Dame men's soccer squared off in the College Cup semifinal. After each team scored one goal in regulation, neither could break the 1-1 tie in overtime thanks to some outstanding goalkeeping from Bryan Dowd and George Marks. Watch the full match highlights here.
www.ncaa.com www.ncaa.com
 
Surfref said:
Speaking of College soccer. The Men’s Division 1 Semi between Clemson and Notre Dame was a really good game. Went to PKs and Clemson won. The Clemson keeper had an amazing game. Final is today with Clemson and Washington.

www.ncaa.com

Clemson defeats Notre Dame in PK shootout finish to advance to College Cup final

Clemson and Notre Dame men's soccer squared off in the College Cup semifinal. After each team scored one goal in regulation, neither could break the 1-1 tie in overtime thanks to some outstanding goalkeeping from Bryan Dowd and George Marks. Watch the full match highlights here.
www.ncaa.com www.ncaa.com
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I don't get ESPNU (so no final either). This has been a bad year for me watching college soccer since most schools require a subscription service or are played on channels we don't get. Exceptions were USD, UCSB, and Cal Poly.

The whole game will probably be on youtube by tomorrow, if historical practices prevail.
 
Got yelled at by a coach I know today, “Protect my players.” My response, “I am not clairvoyant.” His response, “I don’t even know what that means.” Me, “Google it.” About a minute later he respond, “I thought refs could see into the future.” I just gave him a thumbs up.”
 
bossman said:
I’m sure we have all seen some amazing refs that do well to control the game and keep it clean. We have also seen some (especially at the younger levels) that simply will not call anything.

In a scenario where we can see players getting kicked, tripped, pushed, even punched…what should be the appropriate response?

Keep playing and pray that nobody gets injured?

Pull the team off the field and refuse to play?
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My kid plays on a Girls European U17 National Team and has been Capped 2. In all my years of being on the sidelines, I have never witnessed such high-quality refs as in Europe. They were absolutely outstanding--they called fouls--were quick about, the game was not disrupted--no bullshit grandstanding from the Refs--pulled cards when they needed to come out. The players simply adapted and played...nothing more, nothing less. It is Very evident to me that we have a Major, Major problem in the US in how our refs allow our games to be destroyed. Games at Surf often devolve into bar room fights. Not only are they dangerous to the players, but these types of games put an emphasis on being physical and using athleticism over soccer skills/being a technical and tactical player. In Europe it is all about ball movement, and space and being technical and tactical. In the US--it is about the more physical team...the banging and the hanging on... Not that soccer is not a contact sport in essence, but the level of play goes up so much...I believe this is why the European ladies sides are passing up our National Team.
 
MoSalah said:
My kid plays on a Girls European U17 National Team and has been Capped 2. In all my years of being on the sidelines, I have never witnessed such high-quality refs as in Europe. They were absolutely outstanding--they called fouls--were quick about, the game was not disrupted--no bullshit grandstanding from the Refs--pulled cards when they needed to come out. The players simply adapted and played...nothing more, nothing less. It is Very evident to me that we have a Major, Major problem in the US in how our refs allow our games to be destroyed. Games at Surf often devolve into bar room fights. Not only are they dangerous to the players, but these types of games put an emphasis on being physical and using athleticism over soccer skills/being a technical and tactical player. In Europe it is all about ball movement, and space and being technical and tactical. In the US--it is about the more physical team...the banging and the hanging on... Not that soccer is not a contact sport in essence, but the level of play goes up so much...I believe this is why the European ladies sides are passing up our National Team.
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Excellent takes. I keep saying that the girls in the USA need a helmet, knee pads and extra padding to play soccer. Back to back games on the weekends is not helping the girls. Do they play back to back games on the weekends in Europe MoSalah? The clubs make bank on parking fees though......lol. It's rugby style mixed in with roller derby and just knocking players on the grass. Big girls that are big, skilled and fast and can knock you down have the advantage in the states. It's dangerous for smaller players that don't want to lift big weights to compete. Refs can fix this right now if they pull cards out early and tell the hackers to knock it off or get the boot.
 
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MoSalah said:
My kid plays on a Girls European U17 National Team and has been Capped 2. In all my years of being on the sidelines, I have never witnessed such high-quality refs as in Europe. They were absolutely outstanding--they called fouls--were quick about, the game was not disrupted--no bullshit grandstanding from the Refs--pulled cards when they needed to come out. The players simply adapted and played...nothing more, nothing less. It is Very evident to me that we have a Major, Major problem in the US in how our refs allow our games to be destroyed. Games at Surf often devolve into bar room fights. Not only are they dangerous to the players, but these types of games put an emphasis on being physical and using athleticism over soccer skills/being a technical and tactical player. In Europe it is all about ball movement, and space and being technical and tactical. In the US--it is about the more physical team...the banging and the hanging on... Not that soccer is not a contact sport in essence, but the level of play goes up so much...I believe this is why the European ladies sides are passing up our National Team.
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Youth refs are the reason the number one team in the world sucks, eh? That's a new one.

Youth refs aren't any worse than they've ever been, yet somehow the US has managed to win two straight WCs and should have won three in a row. People have been claiming the WNT has been getting passed for 20 years and, guess what, it hasn't. On this site alone, people have spent years claiming the U.S. has been passed by "more technical" Japan, Spain, Netherlands, France, Brazil, China, Germany, blah blah blah. There has always been a team or two that could challenge and sometimes beat the WNT, but they always fade and the WNT always stays at or near the top.

The increased physicality is very much a reason for the WNT's dominance. Sheer athleticism and physical ability is far more important on the women's side than boring everyone to death passing the ball around until Julie Ertz or Lindsay Horan runs them over. The two teams the U.S. needs to worry about also play physical soccer, and they are England and Canada. These teams are technical enough and have the one or two technical players necessary to leverage their physicality to dominate teams that play pretty but ineffective soccer.
 
MoSalah said:
My kid plays on a Girls European U17 National Team and has been Capped 2. In all my years of being on the sidelines, I have never witnessed such high-quality refs as in Europe. They were absolutely outstanding--they called fouls--were quick about, the game was not disrupted--no bullshit grandstanding from the Refs--pulled cards when they needed to come out. The players simply adapted and played...nothing more, nothing less. It is Very evident to me that we have a Major, Major problem in the US in how our refs allow our games to be destroyed. Games at Surf often devolve into bar room fights. Not only are they dangerous to the players, but these types of games put an emphasis on being physical and using athleticism over soccer skills/being a technical and tactical player. In Europe it is all about ball movement, and space and being technical and tactical. In the US--it is about the more physical team...the banging and the hanging on... Not that soccer is not a contact sport in essence, but the level of play goes up so much...I believe this is why the European ladies sides are passing up our National Team.
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My comments come from the perspective of a parent with a daughter and how the refs are not doing a good job with player safety. I don’t watch the boys side and can’t speak to it. I am seeing games at the ECNL level devolve into something that is not soccer. Teams trying to implement possession style and preach ball control are often taken out of that style by reckless, ultra-physical, less skilled teams. It is obvious that some coaches understand that in the youth girls game you can even the playing field with a more skilled team by being physical. This should be combatted by the referee calling appropriate fouls and using cards when needed. This is not happening in many instances. Dangerous tackles from behind, high elbows, arm extended pushing, and more are being used excessively. I am seeing fouls being called in many instances but cards are not being given even on the most egregious/dangerous fouls. I am not sure if it has to do with it being teenage girls that are causing refs not to card but it allows the game to devolve into rugby and ruins teams trying to play the game with a possession mindset. I am worried about injuries. It is secondary for me to think if the USWNT doesn’t win the next World Cup. I don’t want girls to end up with crippling injuries due to this trend in refereeing.
 
Soccer Bum 06 said:
My comments come from the perspective of a parent with a daughter and how the refs are not doing a good job with player safety. I don’t watch the boys side and can’t speak to it. I am seeing games at the ECNL level devolve into something that is not soccer. Teams trying to implement possession style and preach ball control are often taken out of that style by reckless, ultra-physical, less skilled teams. It is obvious that some coaches understand that in the youth girls game you can even the playing field with a more skilled team by being physical. This should be combatted by the referee calling appropriate fouls and using cards when needed. This is not happening in many instances. Dangerous tackles from behind, high elbows, arm extended pushing, and more are being used excessively. I am seeing fouls being called in many instances but cards are not being given even on the most egregious/dangerous fouls. I am not sure if it has to do with it being teenage girls that are causing refs not to card but it allows the game to devolve into rugby and ruins teams trying to play the game with a possession mindset. I am worried about injuries. It is secondary for me to think if the USWNT doesn’t win the next World Cup. I don’t want girls to end up with crippling injuries due to this trend in refereeing.
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Agree 100%…

Our team is at 70% strength because of injuries… the league needs to track the injured and start policing the Refs… way to much pushing from behind.. slide tackles as a matter of course and not the exception.

In my opinion, the ECNL is not communicating on a weekly basis with the Refs..no control.

the only thing the league does is put out a podcast about how their staff climbs the soccer hierarchy ladder!
 
Soccermaverick said:
Agree 100%…

Our team is at 70% strength because of injuries… the league needs to track the injured and start policing the Refs… way to much pushing from behind.. slide tackles as a matter of course and not the exception.

In my opinion, the ECNL is not communicating on a weekly basis with the Refs..no control.

the only thing the league does is put out a podcast about how their staff climbs the soccer hierarchy ladder!
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You hit the nail on the head...there is little to Zero quality control on-going with respect to Refs...who gets what game, how games were called, how games should be called. Surf Cup is a total joke--I think the powers that Be--must think that not giving cards will please the crowd--keep the paying parents happy--total nonsense. How about the league and Surf really dedicating time to preparing the Refs...show some videos of fouls..cards...then actually implement--the experience would be so much better all the way around!!! Essentially at the higher levels of play U15 onward--you have a College level of play. Consequentially, the Refs., need to be able to handle a game at that level...speed, etc. When I pulled an AR aside several weeks ago, post game, I first thanked him. I then told him that this is 1. The Highest Level of Game in the City this weekend--not sure if he was aware of that; 2. Told him that the Parents primary concern is Safety; 3. Told him that we do not care if fouls are called on either side--just that they are called; 4. Told him that at this level --Cards are not going to hurt anybody's feelings and that when a Card is merited, including a Red card--it needs to be pulled--Said, at this level of play, the ladies are essentially professional players...And should be treated as such; 5. Said not calling fouls and not pulling cards causes the game to devolve into a shit show...often rewarding a more physical team over a more technical and or tactical team (at the lower levels, but not when a game is called cleanly--as the skill players will run circles around the less technical and tactical player); 6. Told him that poor quality refs is the biggest or one of the biggest problems in the future success of our soccer programs in the US... I told him the European play story about the quality of Refs... His answer was that we need more Refs... Hopefully, some of my comments were absorbed.
 
I agree that refs need to tighten up a bit, but...
If a player being reckless the fault of the ref? Or the player? Or the coach?

Ref- sees a foul and decides whether or not to call it. Or card it.
Player- Plays on the edge and if the ref won't call it- He'll keep looking to see how far the edge is.
Coach- Knows a player is an "enforcer". Likes this on his team. Doesn't coach a player to not foul / doesn't sub a player for being a safety risk.
 
There are 17 girls on our team. 12 are available now. 5 injured recently…Tackled from behind. Push from behind. Ankle kicks.. Refs only gave 1 yellow card for the 5. 1 out of 5 .. no red. A disreputable coach could take out the entire team and get 1 or 2 yellows!

We should start sending the Veo downloads to the league. Tag it to the Refs.

Soccer is not Hockey or American Football

Why does the ECNL have medical staff at the games? They are part of a system to mitigate risk.
The Ref is also part of that system.

What product is being produced by the league on a weekly basis and given to the the Refs to manage injury and risk.?

Nothing is given to them! Pass a test a couple of years ago and that’s it.. No situational awareness.

The league is relying on wishful thinking and whims when it comes to managing the Refs..


Botton Line : The ECNL needs to communicate the number of cards/ fouls and injuries. Track the reason why kids are getting injured..

Yellows are ignored by clubs.. Reds are rare.. then Why are injuries high? It’s not being managed ..
 
I don’t think you can get a tighter referee culture unless a league is pushing it and parents are willing to choose that league.

Which makes the question how many parents are willing to pull their kid from an ECNL team if another league has better refs.
 
MoSalah said:
When I pulled an AR aside several weeks ago, post game, I first thanked him. I then told him that this is 1. The Highest Level of Game in the City this weekend--not sure if he was aware of that; 2. Told him that the Parents primary concern is Safety; 3. Told him that we do not care if fouls are called on either side--just that they are called; 4. Told him that at this level --Cards are not going to hurt anybody's feelings and that when a Card is merited, including a Red card--it needs to be pulled--Said, at this level of play, the ladies are essentially professional players...And should be treated as such; 5. Said not calling fouls and not pulling cards causes the game to devolve into a shit show...often rewarding a more physical team over a more technical and or tactical team (at the lower levels, but not when a game is called cleanly--as the skill players will run circles around the less technical and tactical player); 6. Told him that poor quality refs is the biggest or one of the biggest problems in the future success of our soccer programs in the US... I told him the European play story about the quality of Refs... His answer was that we need more Refs... Hopefully, some of my comments were absorbed.
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With all due respect if you pull AR right after the game to say something then thanked him is all you should do.
I was saying it before and say it again who do you think those referees are, full time employees or some folks who are doing it for fun and/or some extra money and I am talking only about adult referees. Some referees are better than others and there is even less opportunity to select a special referee for the "most important games" as those referees decide when they have time to pick up a game. Of course, they could be asked but you just need to understand that referees with better credentials are doing other games than refereeing youth games.
Another thing is that since there are many so different leagues/tournaments with so many games that just getting a referee for the game is already huge achievement for those who is in charge of that.
With saying all that I am not here to defend poor officiating.
 
SFR said:
With all due respect if you pull AR right after the game to say something then thanked him is all you should do.
I was saying it before and say it again who do you think those referees are, full time employees or some folks who are doing it for fun and/or some extra money and I am talking only about adult referees. Some referees are better than others and there is even less opportunity to select a special referee for the "most important games" as those referees decide when they have time to pick up a game. Of course, they could be asked but you just need to understand that referees with better credentials are doing other games than refereeing youth games.
Another thing is that since there are many so different leagues/tournaments with so many games that just getting a referee for the game is already huge achievement for those who is in charge of that.
With saying all that I am not here to defend poor officiating.
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We need to pay the refs better, teach them the real game and how to pull yellow and then red cards. This is the only way to clean this up and we should get better refs because good refs like good pay and will take classes on, "How to call a real soccer match like they do in Europe." Bonuses for yellow and red cards. We have to clean up the game and enforce the rules or the hacking will continue. Soccer needs to be about passing the ball around and not rugby. My old High School PE teacher also refed Pac 8 hoops, Big West and HS hoops. He always said this, "if you want good officials, pay them a good wage." Soccer is the worlds most popular sport and refs need good pay. $75 for just about two hours plus drive time is not good wage, moo. Plus the abuse from coaches, players and parents is all too much to take. I bet if all the parents chipped in a "tip" we can make it worth the refs reason to ref.
 
crush said:
We need to pay the refs better, teach them the real game and how to pull yellow and then red cards. This is the only way to clean this up and we should get better refs because good refs like good pay and will take classes on, "How to call a real soccer match like they do in Europe." Bonuses for yellow and red cards. We have to clean up the game and enforce the rules or the hacking will continue. Soccer needs to be about passing the ball around and not rugby. My old High School PE teacher also refed Pac 8 hoops, Big West and HS hoops. He always said this, "if you want good officials, pay them a good wage." Soccer is the worlds most popular sport and refs need good pay. $75 for just about two hours plus drive time is not good wage, moo. Plus the abuse from coaches, players and parents is all too much to take. I bet if all the parents chipped in a "tip" we can make it worth the refs reason to ref.
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I am not sure if paying a little more will improve much. It might attract a few more adults but the quality will remain the same. In my opinion, the ability to deliver quality in refereeing requires good understanding of the game. If you never played yourself and just took a referee course and passed the test then it would take officiating many many many games before you become some what OK referee. And if you never played, how do you tell if excessive force was used vs not excessive, which will the differ between free kick vs free kick + yellow card. I, sometimes, watch YouTube clips from #MLS #InstantReplay where two guys analyzing referees calls and they pretty much disagree between themselves on those calls. Saying all that I think that still improving officiating in youth sport should be happening. The drive should be coming from those who run ref organizations by sending feedback to referees about the issues that happened during weekend games. Sending links to some video clips of situations in youth or pro games and what would be the correct call. Of course, there are many other things could be done to improve current state of officiating.
 
SFR said:
I am not sure if paying a little more will improve much. It might attract a few more adults but the quality will remain the same. In my opinion, the ability to deliver quality in refereeing requires good understanding of the game. If you never played yourself and just took a referee course and passed the test then it would take officiating many many many games before you become some what OK referee. And if you never played, how do you tell if excessive force was used vs not excessive, which will the differ between free kick vs free kick + yellow card. I, sometimes, watch YouTube clips from #MLS #InstantReplay where two guys analyzing referees calls and they pretty much disagree between themselves on those calls. Saying all that I think that still improving officiating in youth sport should be happening. The drive should be coming from those who run ref organizations by sending feedback to referees about the issues that happened during weekend games. Sending links to some video clips of situations in youth or pro games and what would be the correct call. Of course, there are many other things could be done to improve current state of officiating.
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You make some great points.
 
SFR said:
I am not sure if paying a little more will improve much. It might attract a few more adults but the quality will remain the same. In my opinion, the ability to deliver quality in refereeing requires good understanding of the game. If you never played yourself and just took a referee course and passed the test then it would take officiating many many many games before you become some what OK referee. And if you never played, how do you tell if excessive force was used vs not excessive, which will the differ between free kick vs free kick + yellow card. I, sometimes, watch YouTube clips from #MLS #InstantReplay where two guys analyzing referees calls and they pretty much disagree between themselves on those calls. Saying all that I think that still improving officiating in youth sport should be happening. The drive should be coming from those who run ref organizations by sending feedback to referees about the issues that happened during weekend games. Sending links to some video clips of situations in youth or pro games and what would be the correct call. Of course, there are many other things could be done to improve current state of officiating.
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The clips the ref association sends out are always pro games.

If you're trying to become a better youth ref, it's pretty much useless. If any U13 kid applies "excessive force" by professional standards, they deserve a red card and a weightlifting scholarship.
 
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