K-Stop/Star Question

G

Grace T.

DA
The K-stop is a body position keepers use to block of shot when they've come off their line....it looks like a K since the keeper holds out his hands, a knee goes down, and the other knee is bended. The star is a position where the keeper does a split and reaches out his hands and feet very wide to block the shot. Example below. Originally a thing that came out of Slavic ball from use of their crazy ivans 1 v 1s, keepers particularly in the Premier League and Bundes have been doing it more and more and it's a favorite of Neuer and De Gea. It's also a favorite technique in futsal, but in futsal the length of a 1 v 1 is smaller and the size of the goal left open is more narrow than in traditional soccer.

Question: Do your kids do this and if so when are they being told to do it? Big Joe seems to be a fan of the K-stop, particularly on the short 1 v 1 (a breakaway at or near the goalbox). Ian is not and prefers the keeper to keep going until he can slide through. Club GK coach has encouraged the club keepers to do it to mixed results. My own preference has always been for the diving technique (below). It's somewhat parsing hairs since everyone uses it to some extent, but some more than others and at different times. Thoughts?


 
I think there is a time and place for both techniques. My goalkeeper does a mix of both. KSave in a short distance scenario where he needs to get big and quick while closing down the forward. The diving technique he uses when he has a little more time to come out and rush the forward. He has practiced both enough to feel comfortable to making both saves. His trainer that he sees weekly wants the diving technique.

Big Cat (Neill Thompson: LAFC Academy, USYNT) is a huge fan of the K-Save. If you ever go to one of his clinics or practices you will 100% work on the K-Save.
 
forksnbolts said:
I think there is a time and place for both techniques. My goalkeeper does a mix of both. KSave in a short distance scenario where he needs to get big and quick while closing down the forward.
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Yeah, my impression is that the Kstop is best used for short breakaways such as those in the goalbox. Anyone else? Your kids use one or the other or both and when?
 
DD is 14 (freshman) and playing varsity soccer at her D3 HS. Plays on a DPL team, and when time permits uses a private keeper trainer. She has played futsal (did the 619 academy last year) and arena (time permitting) and several soccer camps over past summers. With that context, rarely has she done these type of trainings. There are too many areas to work on and only so many hours in the day/week. She became a FT keeper after 1 year of club soccer, so her foot skills needed to be upgraded (last year with futsal). Her club plays out of the back so her kicks need work (this year with HS soccer). Next year may be a year where she is able to focus on different styles of breakaway training. I do believe that her private trainer tells her to go hands first - always.
 
MyDaughtersAKeeper said:
DD is 14 (freshman) and playing varsity soccer at her D3 HS. Plays on a DPL team, and when time permits uses a private keeper trainer. She has played futsal (did the 619 academy last year) and arena (time permitting) and several soccer camps over past summers. With that context, rarely has she done these type of trainings. There are too many areas to work on and only so many hours in the day/week. She became a FT keeper after 1 year of club soccer, so her foot skills needed to be upgraded (last year with futsal). Her club plays out of the back so her kicks need work (this year with HS soccer). Next year may be a year where she is able to focus on different styles of breakaway training. I do believe that her private trainer tells her to go hands first - always.
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Futsal is great for developing those footskills. They do the K a lot in futsal (unless there's a possibility of a 1-2 in the box, the advice there is usually almost always go for a breakaway on the box....you are either on your line or you are rushing to the edge of your box).

Kudos on finding a club focused on building out the back. The issue with the 1v1 of course is that even with the best technique with an equally skilled keeper and striker it's a 50/50 ball. It's hard to get really good at too if the trainer is just doing keeper v keeper (because most keeper striking skills are awful...good to get the basics, horrible to get proficient unless the coach brings in a striker). But the 1 v 1 is also the time where a keeper can be judged most harshly by the coach/teammates/parents/audience as a hero or a villain. Exhibit A is David Bingham for the LA Galaxy (a keeper whose come under a lot of criticism for his one v ones). If your coach is more interested in her footskills than her 1v1, that coach might be a "keeper".
 
Grace T. said:
The K-stop is a body position keepers use to block of shot when they've come off their line....it looks like a K since the keeper holds out his hands, a knee goes down, and the other knee is bended. The star is a position where the keeper does a split and reaches out his hands and feet very wide to block the shot. Example below. Originally a thing that came out of Slavic ball from use of their crazy ivans 1 v 1s, keepers particularly in the Premier League and Bundes have been doing it more and more and it's a favorite of Neuer and De Gea. It's also a favorite technique in futsal, but in futsal the length of a 1 v 1 is smaller and the size of the goal left open is more narrow than in traditional soccer.

Question: Do your kids do this and if so when are they being told to do it? Big Joe seems to be a fan of the K-stop, particularly on the short 1 v 1 (a breakaway at or near the goalbox). Ian is not and prefers the keeper to keep going until he can slide through. Club GK coach has encouraged the club keepers to do it to mixed results. My own preference has always been for the diving technique (below). It's somewhat parsing hairs since everyone uses it to some extent, but some more than others and at different times. Thoughts?


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Agree with most everything the others posted. My daughter's regular trainer teaches going for the ball hands first, but she did a few camps with Joe before and knows and can execute a K stop, too. I asked her your question, and she explained that the K-stop or Crazy Ivan is just an instinctive reaction when she's been caught off guard by a quick, close range shot, but in most cases, if she's charging out, she's planning to go hands first into the ball. Stopping 1v1 attacks is probably her most elite trait, and she's been great at it since U10 AYSO. According to her, she doesn't think about these questions or techniques in the moment; she's just focused on the player's feet and the ball, and depending on her starting position and their angle, waiting for that one errant touch to explode forward and wipe them out, and barring that, closing down their angle and getting set. Because she goes hands first and has great technique, she doesn't give up rebounds on 1v1 plays. If the striker doesn't beat her, they usually end up on the ground in agony and the ball ends up in her hands. That's the weakness of the k-stop, of course. If you do get the save, you have to hope it goes flying out of bounds because there is no chance you're securing the shot. She's seen opposing keepers make fantastic kick saves only for the rebound to get easily tucked into the goal by the next attacker, so for that reason, she's not much of a fan, even though it looks pretty cool.

That being said, one of her favorite saves ever was a k-stop on a 1v1 where the player fired the shot while she was in mid-stride from so close that she had no idea where the ball was going and she just fell into that shape, blocking the ball with her knee. It was a split second reaction, and she could not possibly have made a dive for the ball because it was almost point blank.
 
Mystery Train said:
That being said, one of her favorite saves ever was a k-stop on a 1v1 where the player fired the shot while she was in mid-stride from so close that she had no idea where the ball was going and she just fell into that shape, blocking the ball with her knee. It was a split second reaction, and she could not possibly have made a dive for the ball because it was almost point blank.
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Cool. It seems like the K is most effective only at point blank range. My son has an issue in that he's been doing the K recently not at point blank, and it hasn't seemed effective at all (as strikers his age no longer are shooting straight at the keeper).

I'm not a fan of the star or crazy Ivan variants....seems like more of a desperation move than anything else which you may get luck, but you'd be better off closing that angle for the additional second than stopping. Useful. Thanks!
 
I think someone above said it, the stop has to just come out. Futsal helped my kid with foot saves, but it also created (in her view) bad habits (using feet instead of hands 1st). The benefit of foot saves is that when all she has left is a foot save, at lease she has it in the bag of tricks.
 
MyDaughtersAKeeper said:
...but it also created (in her view) bad habits (using feet instead of hands 1st).
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This is the primary reason my daughter does not like the K-Stop. She prefers the diving technique as well. She does an excellent job of staying big as she attacks the ball and her reaction time allows her to dive quickly in any direction the ball is placed.

Diving allows her a better chance to secure the ball and also make it more challenging for the striker to get around her.
 
Phil Weddon at Big Joe's camp in addition to the K and dive techniques taught the hold technique. The GK comes out slowly against the attacker with the hands out and tries to hold until the defender gets there and prevent the striker from getting around. I'm not a fan of this version because if you go too slowly the striker is likely to shoot while you are in no man's land and if you get there the striker or mid is likely to be a better ball handler and be able to juke out the GK and dribble past. It used to be done a lot in the Premier League, but you don't really see it done anymore in recent years, even in the MLS and college ball. Anyone using the hold technique instead of the dive or close and K?
 
I think all three should be taught to a keeper. Give them all the tools, then let them make the split second decision that is required and go with what they think is correct based on positioning of their defenders, angle of the play, speed of the incoming player, and depending on long or short touches by the attacker. I'm never sure what my kid is going to do, but I trust her instincts and she usually has a reason for what happens, even when it doesn't go her way. I also recently read about tailoring training to the specific skill set that your keeper has. With every kid being a different size and shape with different reflexes, finding what works best for your keeper is so important.
 
I agree, you have to teach them all the methods and let them choose/make the split decision on what is the best method to go about it. At a camp we were at today they worked a lot on the K-Save. Again, its not his favorite, but it is good to have it in your arsenal especially in plays that are 1-5 yards out and you need to just get big and fast.
 
forksnbolts said:
I agree, you have to teach them all the methods and let them choose/make the split decision on what is the best method to go about it. At a camp we were at today they worked a lot on the K-Save. Again, its not his favorite, but it is good to have it in your arsenal especially in plays that are 1-5 yards out and you need to just get big and fast.
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I agree they should learn a variety of techniques. But some techniques don't work and/or the soccer community has moved on from. I think the hold technique falls in that category. Modern strikers have too many options against a holding GK: chip, juke, pass. You don't see it much in the Premiere League any more though the recent manchester game proves the point...unfortunate as well but youth goalkeepers will be challenged for being timid if they try it where at least with the dive and smother and k techniques they'll be praised for being brave.

 
This keeper in the video looks stuck in the middle of a hold and a dive. Had a chance at a dive as the touch before the chip might have been able to be dove at and grabbed. The hold is staying more upright and cutting the angle and making the chip more difficult which this keeper didn't do as he flopped down.

My daughter has been chipped on during dives, slides, k-saves, and she has also made many saves. So much about instinct, anticipation, timing, experience, etc. I'm thankful her team gives her so many oppurtunities. :rolleyes: Women's soccer is also much different than men's as well as we know 16 year old boys are better than the top US women.
 
socalkdg said:
This keeper in the video looks stuck in the middle of a hold and a dive. Had a chance at a dive as the touch before the chip might have been able to be dove at and grabbed. The hold is staying more upright and cutting the angle and making the chip more difficult which this keeper didn't do as he flopped down.

My daughter has been chipped on during dives, slides, k-saves, and she has also made many saves. So much about instinct, anticipation, timing, experience, etc. I'm thankful her team gives her so many oppurtunities. :rolleyes: Women's soccer is also much different than men's as well as we know 16 year old boys are better than the top US women.
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IIUC, the hold and dive you are correct is much more upright and is also closer in at the top of the goal box and is generally used when the keeper isn't sure if the attacker will penetrate into the box or shoot from far....once the attacker penetrates towards the box (aka zone 2), the maneuver is to close (and do one of the other techniques) because the hold and dive isn't effective anymore the shorter the reaction time that's closed.

What this keeper seems to be doing is the classic old-school hold and stalk. That's when the keeper holds and when it penetrates hold your hands out and stalk the attacker. But as you point out, that's way too low to hold against a chip shot, awkward to get a touched shot, and too slow to beat out a juke. It does rely though on stopping with the feet and diving backward sometimes. See below with the express advice to use feet and come out low....

 
I love rondo with a bunch of keepers, working on footwork on the outside, and diving when in the middle. Jeff Tackett also runs a fun exercise game with two keepers, plus 3 more on each team trying to score with defenders taking over the ball by making a save or dive with their hands.
 
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