Jersey Pulls from Behind

outside!

outside!

DA
Warning, actual soccer discussion.

I re-watched the USWNT vs. Japan final of the She Believes Cup the other night with DD. The incident when Japan's Mina Tanaka (#15) gets beat by Lindsey Horan, and then reaches out to grab a big handful of jersey causing Lindsey to fall and then Mina to fall on top of her reminded me of something that has bugged me for a while. When a defender gets beat by an offensive player and then uses a jersey tug from behind to bring down the offensive player, I think it should be a straight red card. If the defender is not fast enough to catch the offensive player, too bad. The soccer part of the interaction already happened and the defender got beat. The defender's only recourse should be to work hard to get back into a position to play soccer, not resort to American football tactics. Soccer is a low scoring game as it is, when a defender gets beat by an offensive player let that create a goal scoring opportunity.
 
outside! said:
Warning, actual soccer discussion.

I re-watched the USWNT vs. Japan final of the She Believes Cup the other night with DD. The incident when Japan's Mina Tanaka (#15) gets beat by Lindsey Horan, and then reaches out to grab a big handful of jersey causing Lindsey to fall and then Mina to fall on top of her reminded me of something that has bugged me for a while. When a defender gets beat by an offensive player and then uses a jersey tug from behind to bring down the offensive player, I think it should be a straight red card. If the defender is not fast enough to catch the offensive player, too bad. The soccer part of the interaction already happened and the defender got beat. The defender's only recourse should be to work hard to get back into a position to play soccer, not resort to American football tactics. Soccer is a low scoring game as it is, when a defender gets beat by an offensive player let that create a goal scoring opportunity.
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By the rules and opinion of the referee (assuming he sees it - a referee once showed my son how to get away with tugging a shirt) it can be anything from play on to red card.

I used to have a picture from the 2008 So Cal high school final (first year CIF sanctioned a Regional Championship) of one of our midfielders running with the ball with a full-arm "tug" by an opponent. No whistle.
 
outside! said:
Warning, actual soccer discussion.

I re-watched the USWNT vs. Japan final of the She Believes Cup the other night with DD. The incident when Japan's Mina Tanaka (#15) gets beat by Lindsey Horan, and then reaches out to grab a big handful of jersey causing Lindsey to fall and then Mina to fall on top of her reminded me of something that has bugged me for a while. When a defender gets beat by an offensive player and then uses a jersey tug from behind to bring down the offensive player, I think it should be a straight red card. If the defender is not fast enough to catch the offensive player, too bad. The soccer part of the interaction already happened and the defender got beat. The defender's only recourse should be to work hard to get back into a position to play soccer, not resort to American football tactics. Soccer is a low scoring game as it is, when a defender gets beat by an offensive player let that create a goal scoring opportunity.
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same thing in Koln/Dusseldorf game. That at least drew a yellow.

Was defensive half, so hard to argue for the dogso red. But good to see it called.

Game was heavy on fouls, despite being called pretty tight. (or maybe called tight because heavy on fouls.)
 
JumboJack said:
It's really only going to be red is it is a DOGSO. Yellow normally for SPA.
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Yes and that's how it should be..... a red for a non-dogso shirt pull would be ridiculous...... do it too many times and it could be a red via a double yellow thogh..... the current rules are about perfect.....
 
futboldad1 said:
a red for a non-dogso shirt pull would be ridiculous
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Why would it be ridiculous? Is pulling a jersey somehow an advanced soccer skill? A jersey pull is just plain old cheating and in no way is in the spirit of the game. It is something done when a defender lost out on the skill battle and has to resort to dirty tricks. The laws of the game and interperation of the laws have been changed many times over the years. Why not add it to the DOGSO criteria such that it could overrule some of the criteria? How would it make the game worse? If this were to become a DOGSO offence, it would become a rare occurrence and the game would become safer (and a better showcase of skill).
 
outside! said:
Why would it be ridiculous? Is pulling a jersey somehow an advanced soccer skill? A jersey pull is just plain old cheating and in no way is in the spirit of the game. It is something done when a defender lost out on the skill battle and has to resort to dirty tricks. The laws of the game and interperation of the laws have been changed many times over the years. Why not add it to the DOGSO criteria such that it could overrule some of the criteria? How would it make the game worse? If this were to become a DOGSO offence, it would become a rare occurrence and the game would become safer (and a better showcase of skill).
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It is a DOGSO offence if it denies a goal scoring opportunity (Denial Of Goal Scoring Opportunity). If its a SPA (Stopping a Promising Attack) it's yellow. If it's neither of those it's just a foul.

If you gave out a red card every time someone tugged on a jersey there would be 9 people left on the field at the end of a game. At all levels.
 
outside! said:
Why would it be ridiculous? Is pulling a jersey somehow an advanced soccer skill? A jersey pull is just plain old cheating and in no way is in the spirit of the game. It is something done when a defender lost out on the skill battle and has to resort to dirty tricks. The laws of the game and interperation of the laws have been changed many times over the years. Why not add it to the DOGSO criteria such that it could overrule some of the criteria? How would it make the game worse? If this were to become a DOGSO offence, it would become a rare occurrence and the game would become safer (and a better showcase of skill).
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Tactical fouls have been part of the game for many decades.... you generally get a yellow for the first or second instance of blatantly pulling back an opponent, you do it again and you get a red..... the punishment perfectly fits the crime as it is currently written.....
 
futboldad1 said:
Tactical fouls have been part of the game for many decades.... you generally get a yellow for the first or second instance of blatantly pulling back an opponent, you do it again and you get a red..... the punishment perfectly fits the crime as it is currently written.....
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Yes, and deliberate handballs were also part of the game for a long time. Then came VAR and it stopped. Good riddance.

I wouldn't mind an end to tactical fouls. They stop play at the worst possible time. At a minimum, stricter enforcement of SPA and DOGSO would be an improvement.
 
espola said:
By the rules and opinion of the referee (assuming he sees it - a referee once showed my son how to get away with tugging a shirt) it can be anything from play on to red card.
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Is this another "problem" soccer has in gaining a foothold in America? There is a huge range of interpretation open for the official that doesn't go down well. In the NFL, one bad call in the playoffs can lead to a rule change (not that it should). In soccer, a play can be "play on" or "red card" and the ref is correct either way due to "opinion of the referee". I am not sure that's a good "cultural" fit.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
Maybe for a few games. Then you'd see more skilled soccer. Hockey did something similar. Soccer needs it.
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In the OLD days of the NASL (60's) most teams would import some legend past his prime to stimulate the box office, even Pelein NYC. Unfortunately, they also imported some flop artists which gave rise to a number of jokes about "soccer injuries".
 
espola said:
In the OLD days of the NASL (60's) most teams would import some legend past his prime to stimulate the box office, even Pelein NYC. Unfortunately, they also imported some flop artists which gave rise to a number of jokes about "soccer injuries".
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The flopping is annoying. If they don't want to ruin "the flow" of the game, they can easily add a deterrent by reviewing these after the game and suspending players for it.
 
kickingandscreaming said:
Is this another "problem" soccer has in gaining a foothold in America? There is a huge range of interpretation open for the official that doesn't go down well. In the NFL, one bad call in the playoffs can lead to a rule change (not that it should). In soccer, a play can be "play on" or "red card" and the ref is correct either way due to "opinion of the referee". I am not sure that's a good "cultural" fit.
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That's not true. There are criteria that has to met for something to be a red card. There's is no advantage allowed for a red card offense unless it's "imminently" leading to a goal. That would basically mean someone standing in front of an open net with no chance of missing. I've never seen it happen. A red card is a red card. Soccer has subtleties that no other sport has with regard to officiating. One of the things that makes it so interesting and fun to referee, and to watch.
 
Thanks for the clarification. You are correct about "subtleties". I would think that, especially with inexperienced refs, those subtleties lead to inconsistency in how games are officiated. The one thing I have noticed in girls youth soccer is the differences in how running into someone from behind is handled. The way it is officiated is wildly inconsistent subtle ;-).
 
outside! said:
Warning, actual soccer discussion.

I re-watched the USWNT vs. Japan final of the She Believes Cup the other night with DD. The incident when Japan's Mina Tanaka (#15) gets beat by Lindsey Horan, and then reaches out to grab a big handful of jersey causing Lindsey to fall and then Mina to fall on top of her reminded me of something that has bugged me for a while. When a defender gets beat by an offensive player and then uses a jersey tug from behind to bring down the offensive player, I think it should be a straight red card. If the defender is not fast enough to catch the offensive player, too bad. The soccer part of the interaction already happened and the defender got beat. The defender's only recourse should be to work hard to get back into a position to play soccer, not resort to American football tactics. Soccer is a low scoring game as it is, when a defender gets beat by an offensive player let that create a goal scoring opportunity.
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Thank you for starting a soccer discussion.

A jersey tug can be a great tactical foul under the right circumstances. It's rarely dangerous to the opponent and has been a part of the game forever, just like other tactical fouls. It sucks when my kid gets tugged after beating a defender, but I applaud the decision making when my son does it to an attacker to prevent a promising attack. Part of the game and it just doesn't rise to the level of a red card, but in most tug cases I feel it should be a yellow.
 
watfly said:
Thank you for starting a soccer discussion.

A jersey tug can be a great tactical foul under the right circumstances. It's rarely dangerous to the opponent and has been a part of the game forever, just like other tactical fouls. It sucks when my kid gets tugged after beating a defender, but I applaud the decision making when my son does it to an attacker to prevent a promising attack. Part of the game and it just doesn't rise to the level of a red card, but in most tug cases I feel it should be a yellow.
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Tugging is a foul, and expected at times as part of the game. Not calling it at all is complicity.
 
I still say a jersey pull from behind is a crap tactic and disrupts the flow of the game. It is used by defenders that just got owned, they had their chance and miffed it. Many times the jersey tug comes after the defender committed other fouls that the offensive player managed to stay on their feet through and break away. In my opinion the current implementation of the laws is too easy on defenders in general and this is just a glaring example. There is a reason that offensive players learn to flop as a way of protecting themselves.
 
baldref said:
That's not true. There are criteria that has to met for something to be a red card. There's is no advantage allowed for a red card offense unless it's "imminently" leading to a goal. That would basically mean someone standing in front of an open net with no chance of missing. I've never seen it happen. A red card is a red card. Soccer has subtleties that no other sport has with regard to officiating. One of the things that makes it so interesting and fun to referee, and to watch.
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I don’t think he was saying that a referee gave advantage when he was considering a red card.

I think he is saying that some referees see the jersey tug, internally declare it to be ”trifling”, and call nothing. Another ref will see the same tug, decide it stopped a goal opportunity, and pull out a red card.
 
outside! said:
I still say a jersey pull from behind is a crap tactic and disrupts the flow of the game. It is used by defenders that just got owned, they had their chance and miffed it. Many times the jersey tug comes after the defender committed other fouls that the offensive player managed to stay on their feet through and break away. In my opinion the current implementation of the laws is too easy on defenders in general and this is just a glaring example. There is a reason that offensive players learn to flop as a way of protecting themselves.
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In my experience, that depends on the referee team. Players with a few years' experience (12-14 year-olds) have figured that out and behave according to what the referee is allowing.
 
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