It's Just For Your Own Good !
- Thread starter thirteenknots
- Start date
thirteenknots
SILVER ELITE
The argument for mandates is not that it is for your good.
The argument is that the unvaccinated are endangering others by maintaining a higher risk of transmission.
Don’t bother arguing that unvaccinated are not higher risk for delta transmission. The higher transmission rate is just a fact, and it is well documented in the literature. It may be a fact you don’t like. But that doesn’t make it false.
And no, similar peak viral load does not mean the same thing as similar transmission rates. (Same peak does not mean same duration, or same probability of infection. ).
So, if you want to argue about mandates, the argument you are facing is not benevolence. It is the fact that unvaccinated folks are spreading covid at a higher rate than other people.
Nothing to do with caring about what is good for you.
The argument is that the unvaccinated are endangering others by maintaining a higher risk of transmission.
Don’t bother arguing that unvaccinated are not higher risk for delta transmission. The higher transmission rate is just a fact, and it is well documented in the literature. It may be a fact you don’t like. But that doesn’t make it false.
And no, similar peak viral load does not mean the same thing as similar transmission rates. (Same peak does not mean same duration, or same probability of infection. ).
So, if you want to argue about mandates, the argument you are facing is not benevolence. It is the fact that unvaccinated folks are spreading covid at a higher rate than other people.
Nothing to do with caring about what is good for you.
met61
GOLD
In fairness to the OP, there have been 3 arguments raised (not necessarily by you) for the mandates.
1. For your own good. The problem with this argument then is why do you let people make important choices like voting or having children without a license, all of which for most people is more impactful.
2. For the good of the hospital system. This argument works in places like the Czech Republic or Ireland with limited ICU capacity, but stops working when enough of your pop is vaccinated or if you have sufficient hospital capacity to weather a delta wave, like the US has been shown to be able to do.
3. To prevent spread. One issue with this argument is that it concedes the vaccine then is imperfect with respect to serious illness (otherwise why do you care). The second issue is that it assumes the vaccinated are not spreading it. a. we know that's not true...the only question really is how much of a difference, b. we know that vaccine efficiency is declining with time (counting a 2% efficient J&J shot as "immune" after 6 months makes your mandate theater), c. we know that peak viral loads can be similar even if the duration may not be but that means you are back to 2 in your argument.
The jury is still out on what the boosters do. But if you are going to argue for a mandate that actually does something, it's become overwhelming evident that such a mandate (if 3 is your concern) would need to include boosters, otherwise you are just doing theater.
BTW, you said you opposed a mandate...so what changed?
GoldenGate
GOLD
You seem to have learned all but one thing from your anti-vax/mask Herman Cain Award winner friends.
Awardee refused vaccine and compared it to concentration camps. Then he spent 6 weeks on a ventilator and died. (edited & reposted) : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Reposted at mod request: UPDATE: "Brady" a picture-perfect HCA nominee who shared every meme imaginable, has claimed his award, leaving behind a distraught wife and confused young daughter. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Update: “Hell is Truth Seen Too Late” This awardee chose protecting his freedom over his family and lost the Covid lottery. He leaves his wife of 50 years on a ventilator. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Blue had more to say than most awardees, instead of just posting memes blankly. Unfortunately, he didn’t use any of the logic or common sense he lamented are gone now. His dad posts his award notice while still having an anti-mandate frame. You can’t make this stuff up. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Yellow was a trailblazer rebel on Facebook who spent much time in Jail for spreading his misinformation. Now his wife, red, and his blue grandchildren get to reap what he sowed.SMH bc I’m currently editing his good nominated friend, so we can add SuperSPREADER (Repost bc I didn’t redact a name) : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
“If you think this is our last pandemic, you are sadly mistaken.” She is anti-mandate, anti-Fauci and thinks the media coverage is “the devil at work”. Her daughter announced she had covid, her sister announced her “peaceful” passing and her friend posted a denial of the cause of death. : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
This awardee hated masks and definitely didn’t trust “that shot.” His friends tried to help him stay safe but quickly became frustrated. He might have gotten away with it all, if a loved one hadn’t summoned Candace Owens. (repost/redact) : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
Local martial arts instructor and anti-vax shitposter accepts his award. *repost with further redaction* : HermanCainAward (reddit.com)
No need for a mandate when transmission is low enough that we can just ignore the anti-vax people and let them be free riders. 5% anti-vax folks are not enough to keep the original virus around and close to everyone else. They slow down the decline in cases, but that is all.
With higher transmissibility and more anti-vax people, that strategy doesn’t work. 20% anti-vax folks are enough to keep delta alive and close to everyone else. In this case, they aren’t just slowing the decline, they are preventing it entirely.
My notion of mandate is different from Austria’s. I support passports to keep high risk people out of high risk places. But that does not apply to low risk places.
ah....you are clinging to the idea that still if you get a high enough vaccination rate + masks you can get to the point where the R drops below 1 and the delta disappears. flaws in the argument: a. you are constantly neglecting the decline in vaccine efficiency...you only get there if natural immunity and/or boosters makes it so the protection against infection is robust (the J&J shot declines to near zero making your mandate that allows for a 1 dose J&J shot meaningless...so I admit it's possible but you only get there if either i. you blow it out and encourage everyone to acquire natural immunity meaning we tear your mask out of your cold dead grasp, or ii. you mandate boosters, b. assuming arguendo masks actually help that much, people are not going to agree to wear masks for years on end...the recent private home mask mandate from that one northern county is laughable....even in NorCal you aren't going to get a high percentage of people obeying, and c. the R fluctuates with other conditions such as winter seasonality (see Ireland, Singapore, Vermont).
Desert Hound
DA
I fixed it for you.
thirteenknots
SILVER ELITE
Your well oiled LIE is doing nothing but making you feel better.
Go have your immune system checked thoroughly, and get back
with the Truth.
I do wish you the best.
thirteenknots
SILVER ELITE
The high " Risk " are the vaccinated now.
Look it up on a valid site, not a regurgitated story site.
Co-morbidities are always a risk no matter what virus/disease.
thirteenknots
SILVER ELITE
“Businesses's In New South Wales (NSW) Will Be Held Accountable”
The lead vaccine researchers driving all government policy in Australia received $65,330,038 in government grants covering 2020-2023. Grants of this size are unprecedented.
Remember when Clive Palmer said in a press conference two weeks ago that Gladys Berejiklian was being paid tens of millions of dollars by a lobbyist in Sydney?
Notice that the name “K Macartney” appears next to every single one of the grants. This is referring to Professor Kristine Macartney who is a paediatrician specialising in infectious diseases and vaccinology at the University of Sydney. She is also a director of the National Centre for Immunisation Research & Surveillance (NCIRS).
Most revealingly, she is also a member of the Advisory Committee on Vaccines (ACV) of the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).
Yep, the same TGA that BANNED lvermectin as an early treatment option for treating COVlD despite its high efficacy in other countries. Prof Kristine Macartney has also acted as an expert consultant to the surprise surprise World Health Organisation (WHO).
She was also one of the contributing authors of a peer-reviewed paper entitled “Constructing an ethical framework for priority allocation of pandemic vaccines.”
“Now you know why lvermectin was banned.”
All this is probably an indicator why Prof Kristine Macartney seemed very uncomfortable when she was questioned during yesterday’s NSW Supreme Court hearings.
“Another point of interest is that many of the grants were applied for and awarded before 2020.”
(The barrister asked Kristine McCartney a few questions today (the player behind the scenes that insisted we lock down our state and mandate vaccines as the only solution)
• Barrister – ‘Is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely to catch and spread the virus?
• Kristine – Yes.
• Barrister – ‘Are vaccines dangerous at all to pregnant women or those planning to fall pregnant?’
• Kristine – Yes.
• Barrister – ‘Is it true that the vaccines have never been studied for effectiveness and safety’?
• Kristine – Yes, they have never been fully studied.
• We are patiently waiting for what was meant to be the final hearing today and it’s looking promising that the Judge Thomas Beech Jones will put a stop to the mandatory rollout of the vaccines.
• Judge Thomas Beech Jones also stated that the government suppressed the medication to the population and the government made people believe there was no way out of this unless we all get the vaccine.
As a wise man once said, the people have the power, all we have to do is awaken the power in the people!”)
“Permanently Muzzling Society”
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/disease/permanently-muzzling-society/
Looping the common cold in with the coronavirus is a dangerous step toward endless tyranny. The CDC initially said that anyone who received the jab would not be required to wear masks, but now it appears that they are supporting the idea of wearing masks for the foreseeable future. As we have seen since the pandemic began, CDC suggestions can quickly become mandates. There is no evidence of mask mandates effectively protecting the public. In fact, some states with mask mandates have higher cases of COVID than those without requirements such as California v Florida. If we do not hold the line, the mandates and control over society will never end.
The lead vaccine researchers driving all government policy in Australia received $65,330,038 in government grants covering 2020-2023. Grants of this size are unprecedented.
Remember when Clive Palmer said in a press conference two weeks ago that Gladys Berejiklian was being paid tens of millions of dollars by a lobbyist in Sydney?
Notice that the name “K Macartney” appears next to every single one of the grants. This is referring to Professor Kristine Macartney who is a paediatrician specialising in infectious diseases and vaccinology at the University of Sydney. She is also a director of the National Centre for Immunisation Research & Surveillance (NCIRS).
Most revealingly, she is also a member of the Advisory Committee on Vaccines (ACV) of the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).
Yep, the same TGA that BANNED lvermectin as an early treatment option for treating COVlD despite its high efficacy in other countries. Prof Kristine Macartney has also acted as an expert consultant to the surprise surprise World Health Organisation (WHO).
She was also one of the contributing authors of a peer-reviewed paper entitled “Constructing an ethical framework for priority allocation of pandemic vaccines.”
“Now you know why lvermectin was banned.”
All this is probably an indicator why Prof Kristine Macartney seemed very uncomfortable when she was questioned during yesterday’s NSW Supreme Court hearings.
“Another point of interest is that many of the grants were applied for and awarded before 2020.”
(The barrister asked Kristine McCartney a few questions today (the player behind the scenes that insisted we lock down our state and mandate vaccines as the only solution)
• Barrister – ‘Is it true that double vaccinated people are 13 times more likely to catch and spread the virus?
• Kristine – Yes.
• Barrister – ‘Are vaccines dangerous at all to pregnant women or those planning to fall pregnant?’
• Kristine – Yes.
• Barrister – ‘Is it true that the vaccines have never been studied for effectiveness and safety’?
• Kristine – Yes, they have never been fully studied.
• We are patiently waiting for what was meant to be the final hearing today and it’s looking promising that the Judge Thomas Beech Jones will put a stop to the mandatory rollout of the vaccines.
• Judge Thomas Beech Jones also stated that the government suppressed the medication to the population and the government made people believe there was no way out of this unless we all get the vaccine.
As a wise man once said, the people have the power, all we have to do is awaken the power in the people!”)
“Permanently Muzzling Society”
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/disease/permanently-muzzling-society/
Looping the common cold in with the coronavirus is a dangerous step toward endless tyranny. The CDC initially said that anyone who received the jab would not be required to wear masks, but now it appears that they are supporting the idea of wearing masks for the foreseeable future. As we have seen since the pandemic began, CDC suggestions can quickly become mandates. There is no evidence of mask mandates effectively protecting the public. In fact, some states with mask mandates have higher cases of COVID than those without requirements such as California v Florida. If we do not hold the line, the mandates and control over society will never end.
Not sure what you count as a valid site.
My county health department is showing unvaccinated infection rates running about ten times as high as vaccinated.
Do you have a link to one of your “valid” sites? I haven’t seen anyone reputable make the claim you just did.
met61
GOLD
...here you go.Not sure what you count as a valid site.
My county health department is showing unvaccinated infection rates running about ten times as high as vaccinated.
Do you have a link to one of your “valid” sites? I haven’t seen anyone reputable make the claim you just did.
Deaths by vaccination status, England - Office for National Statistics
Age-standardised mortality rates for deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19), non-COVID-19 deaths and all deaths by vaccination status, broken down by age group.
www.ons.gov.uk
Yes. Ages 10 to 59. Deaths from all causes.
Vaccination status correlates with age.
Death from all causes correlates with age.
Your chart neatly proves that older vaccinated Britons are more likely to die of heart attacks than younger unvaccinated Britons.
How completely unexpected. I wonder what the cause is....
Soccermaverick
SILVER ELITE
Lead Paragraphs:
Europe is likely to experience more than two million Covid-19 deaths by March, the World Health Organisation (WHO) has warned.
The WHO said the European region remains “in the firm grip” of the coronavirus pandemic, with reported daily deaths rising to almost 4,200 a day – double the 2,100 deaths a day at the end of September.
Reported deaths from the virus have already passed the 1.5 million mark for the 53 countries that make up the WHO European region, the global health agency said.
Covid-19 is the number one cause of death across Europe and central Asia, and the WHO said it expects there to be “high or extreme stress on hospital beds in 25 countries, and high or extreme stress in intensive care units (ICUs) in 49 out of 53 countries between now and March 2022”.
Europe is likely to experience more than two million Covid-19 deaths by March, the World Health Organisation (WHO) has warned.
The WHO said the European region remains “in the firm grip” of the coronavirus pandemic, with reported daily deaths rising to almost 4,200 a day – double the 2,100 deaths a day at the end of September.
Reported deaths from the virus have already passed the 1.5 million mark for the 53 countries that make up the WHO European region, the global health agency said.
Covid-19 is the number one cause of death across Europe and central Asia, and the WHO said it expects there to be “high or extreme stress on hospital beds in 25 countries, and high or extreme stress in intensive care units (ICUs) in 49 out of 53 countries between now and March 2022”.
Soccermaverick
SILVER ELITE
excerpt:
One of the largest studies so far has gathered data from 1.2 million people who received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine and logged their experience in the COVID Symptom Study app, which was developed by the London-based data-science company ZOE and King’s College London1. The team found that a full two-dose regimen of vaccination reduced the risk of long COVID — as defined by persistent symptoms for at least 28 days after infection — by about half among those who had breakthrough infections. But the study contained disproportionately more women than men and fewer people from lower-income areas.
Still, the message is clear, says Claire Steves, a geriatrician at King’s College London and lead author of the study. Vaccination considerably reduces infection rates and the severity of symptoms: even with waning immunity and the emergence of the more-infectious Delta variant. One study of US veterans found that the COVID-19 vaccines for that group offered about 50% protection against coronavirus infection, even during the Delta surge6. Steves and her colleagues found that vaccination then further reduces the risk of long COVID in those who develop a breakthrough infection by another half: about 11% in the unvaccinated group had persistent symptoms for at least 28 days compared with about 5% in the vaccinated group of breakthrough infections1. Even so, the number of people who developed long COVID from breakthrough infections is significant, she says. “It does still exist — we do still have to be aware that’s the case.”
One of the largest studies so far has gathered data from 1.2 million people who received at least one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine and logged their experience in the COVID Symptom Study app, which was developed by the London-based data-science company ZOE and King’s College London1. The team found that a full two-dose regimen of vaccination reduced the risk of long COVID — as defined by persistent symptoms for at least 28 days after infection — by about half among those who had breakthrough infections. But the study contained disproportionately more women than men and fewer people from lower-income areas.
Still, the message is clear, says Claire Steves, a geriatrician at King’s College London and lead author of the study. Vaccination considerably reduces infection rates and the severity of symptoms: even with waning immunity and the emergence of the more-infectious Delta variant. One study of US veterans found that the COVID-19 vaccines for that group offered about 50% protection against coronavirus infection, even during the Delta surge6. Steves and her colleagues found that vaccination then further reduces the risk of long COVID in those who develop a breakthrough infection by another half: about 11% in the unvaccinated group had persistent symptoms for at least 28 days compared with about 5% in the vaccinated group of breakthrough infections1. Even so, the number of people who developed long COVID from breakthrough infections is significant, she says. “It does still exist — we do still have to be aware that’s the case.”
Soccermaverick
SILVER ELITE
The American Medical Association voted last week to allow only licensed physicians to write requests for patients seeking medical exemptions from vaccine mandates.
But the association does not have the power to enforce what is, in effect, a symbolic action intended to show concern as tens of thousands of people seek exemptions. While some states prohibit alternative practitioners like homeopaths, osteopaths, chiropractors and naturopaths from writing medical exemptions for vaccines, other states allow it.
“Science supports a vaccine mandate,” said Dr. Gerald E. Harmon, the president of the American Medical Association, “and we do not need to offer routes to evade mandates and undermine public health by seeking out practitioners who are not licensed or medically trained.”
The A.M.A.’s stance reflects increasing frustration among doctors with the spread of misinformation about Covid-19 vaccines and the virus. The association says that alternative practitioners are less likely than licensed physicians to recommend vaccines, and that they may even advise people not be vaccinated.
But removing power from alternative practitioners would not stop patients from getting invalid medical exemption requests. Licensed medical doctors are also writing bogus requests, according to doctors who are being asked to rule on them.
Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at the University of California, San Francisco, sees the problem with invalid exemptions firsthand. Although California prohibits alternative practitioners from writing vaccine exemptions, patients are finding licensed doctors who will write them.
Dr. Chin-Hong said the university often called on him to evaluate the requests.
“I have never seen one that passed muster,” he said.
Some patients seeking a medical exemption will simply hop from one doctor to another if they are turned down, said Lawrence O. Gostin, a global health law professor at Georgetown University. If the university denies their request, he added, people often turn up again with a request for a religious exemption.
— Gina Kolata
But the association does not have the power to enforce what is, in effect, a symbolic action intended to show concern as tens of thousands of people seek exemptions. While some states prohibit alternative practitioners like homeopaths, osteopaths, chiropractors and naturopaths from writing medical exemptions for vaccines, other states allow it.
“Science supports a vaccine mandate,” said Dr. Gerald E. Harmon, the president of the American Medical Association, “and we do not need to offer routes to evade mandates and undermine public health by seeking out practitioners who are not licensed or medically trained.”
The A.M.A.’s stance reflects increasing frustration among doctors with the spread of misinformation about Covid-19 vaccines and the virus. The association says that alternative practitioners are less likely than licensed physicians to recommend vaccines, and that they may even advise people not be vaccinated.
But removing power from alternative practitioners would not stop patients from getting invalid medical exemption requests. Licensed medical doctors are also writing bogus requests, according to doctors who are being asked to rule on them.
Dr. Peter Chin-Hong, an infectious disease expert at the University of California, San Francisco, sees the problem with invalid exemptions firsthand. Although California prohibits alternative practitioners from writing vaccine exemptions, patients are finding licensed doctors who will write them.
Dr. Chin-Hong said the university often called on him to evaluate the requests.
“I have never seen one that passed muster,” he said.
Some patients seeking a medical exemption will simply hop from one doctor to another if they are turned down, said Lawrence O. Gostin, a global health law professor at Georgetown University. If the university denies their request, he added, people often turn up again with a request for a religious exemption.
— Gina Kolata
met61
GOLD
...In other news:
In the United States, sane Americans will enjoy a family, friends, and freedom filled Thanksgiving... citing; "to hell with what Fauci says."
...now back to you Dick.