Game fixing

[Zoro]

Are you being intellectually honest here, or just trying to be right? If it was acceptable to fix the match, there was no reason to "act" out a game. They should have had the refs just mark the scorecard and the refs could have made the girls run laps to avoid a bullshit circus show.

My initial premise, along with E (who is not compelled to agree with me) is that the game is part of the larger competition.

It is the competition that matters. So if there is one game Wed night to see who is better - that one game matters. If there is a tournament, it is who wins the tournament. If it is the Tour de France the team riders are expected to take it easy on the TT so they can help their guy win the Tour. The goal is to get the hardware, title, money. The other stuff along the way does not matter other than getting to the goal.

 

[Zoro]

...
My kid's team was in a similar situation once - the two Saturday games set up the same situation where the 2 teams would play Sunday morning in the third game and then Sunday afternoon in the final. The two coaches got together with the tournament director and the referees and decided the morning game would be the final.

I expect this was before the game, had unanimous agreement and I'd have though the tournament officials would have OK'd it too.

 

[Wez]

My initial premise, along with E (who is not compelled to agree with me) is that the game is part of the larger competition.

It is the competition that matters. So if there is one game Wed night to see who is better - that one game matters. If there is a tournament, it is who wins the tournament. If it is the Tour de France the team riders are expected to take it easy on the TT so they can help their guy win the Tour. The goal is to get the hardware, title, money. The other stuff along the way does not matter other than getting to the goal.

Can you answer my questions? You keep repeating your justifications.

 

[espola]

I expect this was before the game, had unanimous agreement and I'd have though the tournament officials would have OK'd it too.

Yes, and the referees had to agree also since the rules were slightly different for the final (game length and how to handle a tie).

 

[Zoro]

Are you being intellectually honest here, or just trying to be right?

Both. Honest first. Right is nice.

 

[Truth]

My initial premise, along with E (who is not compelled to agree with me) is that the game is part of the larger competition.

It is the competition that matters. So if there is one game Wed night to see who is better - that one game matters. If there is a tournament, it is who wins the tournament. If it is the Tour de France the team riders are expected to take it easy on the TT so they can help their guy win the Tour. The goal is to get the hardware, title, money. The other stuff along the way does not matter other than getting to the goal.

Zoro. Are you really taking the position that the ends justifies the means here and that you are ok with playacting a match in order to further your goals?

I'm sorry, that's not what we should be teaching our kids.

If you step on to a field, you are there to do your best and compete. End of story.

If you had watched the video, I very much doubt you would be here trying to justify that spectacle.

 

[diegokicker]

For the record, Duggan has in other occasions approached coaches to "agree" on a match result, to help them get thru or keep their entitlement. IMO, Duggan should be banned from youth soccer. This is a first hand fact.

 

[Zoro]

Zoro. Are you really taking the position that the ends justifies the means here and that you are ok with playacting a match in order to further your goals?

I'm sorry, that's not what we should be teaching our kids.

If you step on to a field, you are there to do your best and compete. End of story.

If you had watched the video, I very much doubt you would be here trying to justify that spectacle.

I did not and could not watch the video.
Direct answer is within the rules and under the authority of what the officials allow - anything to win is fine. So not things not legal, or acceptable outside of soccer. When things go wrong - I blame the tournament authority, organization. Not coaches and players. If it is that bad the tournament director could have shut it down.

You teach different things at different ages. At U18 playacting/gamesmanship, strategy is all part of winning as are professional fouls. I expect teammates playing in the park with no ref to not playact and be as you suggest. But when you have U18 adults with referees and structure around them players and coaches should play the game to win the tournament.

 

[Wez]

When things go wrong - I blame the tournament authority, organization.

Why didn't they approach the tournament authorities for approval and just have the authorities mark zeroes on the scorecard? Why the soccer acting session?

 

[Truth]

These clubs have the same issues Hillary Clinton does. JUST BE HONEST.

The match fixing clubs story, in a timeline:

- It was hot, some teams rested starters, we just decided to play less hard than we would normally.
- The coaches didn't talk, the players just decided to fake playing soccer spontaneously.
[No one buys this story]
- Ok, maybe they were directed by their coaches to put on a soccer play instead of compete, but it didn't change the seedings or the tournament at all.
[It's pointed out that it could have affected the seeding]
- Ok, maybe it could have affected the seeding, but it's not against the rules to fix matches.
- Ok, maybe it's against the spirit of the rules, but it's the other club's fault that they weren't trying to score either.

Total fiasco. JUST TELL THE TRUTH.

Here's what they should have done, immediately.

As the DoC, I accept full responsibility for the events in which our team did not compete to the best of their ability. That is not how we train players and goes against the values upon which this club is founded. While factors such as unlikelihood of playoff seeds changing and the incredibly hot weather played a factor in the decision to pretend to play the game, they are no excuse. The coach in question has been disciplined/terminated, and we apologize to the USYS, the soccer community and to our parents. [insert other PR fluff here]

 

[Zoro]

The video is working. I saw some of it. It is about what I expected. Poor referee. Who likely is highly experienced and may be observed for future promotion.

It would be pretty hard to sanction anyone over that - alone. Paying an official, colluding before the tournament - maybe - if there is a rule about that. But as a game inside the tournament I doubt anything will be done.
That is little different than the 0-10 games each summer where the "sporting" thing to do is kick it around, when 0 coach asked 10 coach to back off.

 

[texanincali]

OK - game fixing. But only when the game is part of something bigger. I don't think a team has ever thrown/fixed the WC. But they may throw a game to get a better opponent to win the World Cup.

DD specific 2013 G19 National Championship. DD's team beats defending National Champions in pool. Winner takes top of pool, 2nd gets 2nd. Both go on. I notice several of their top players are sitting. I think they expected a loss and decided to take it knowing they could come around on the other side. We meet again in the US National Championship final. The team we play is different than in pool. They play different and have different players on the pitch. DD holds to clean sheet out shot 8:1 in final 90. We lose in OT.
My opinion is the coach threw the pool game because they knew they would go through anyway and preferred that 2nd route to the one that we took winning the pool. I still don't know which team was better. But they were the undisputed National Champions. #1 of 10,000 G19s. Kudos to them. Well played. IMO coach threw the pool game.

I am not exactly sure what you are on about.

Resting starters, playing subs, sitting back and defending...all are fine in this scenario - no one would care if that is what happened. That isn't what happened though - both teams made a farce out of the tournament and disgraced themselves in front of the entire youth soccer world.

Your posts are incoherent at best and none of them have even come close to describing what actually occurred on the field.

 

[timbuck]

Could a referee give cautions for "unsporting behavior"?
Can roaming around the field and not putting in any attacking effort be considered unsportsmanlike?

 

[tugs]

They might as well have just sat on the field playing cards with each other. What a joke. Made a mockery of the game and horrible example of sportsmanship to the young athletes. Coaches should be suspended at the very least.

 

[LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad]

I am not exactly sure what you are on about.

Resting starters, playing subs, sitting back and defending...all are fine in this scenario - no one would care if that is what happened. That isn't what happened though - both teams made a farce out of the tournament and disgraced themselves in front of the entire youth soccer world.

Your posts are incoherent at best and none of them have even come close to describing what actually occurred on the field.

Let me know if you really want to know what happened on the field - I was there all week, so I could tell you. If you actually watched the first 25-30 minutes of the game, it was actually being played. Conservatively, and with reserves for Carlsbad, but played. Some runs downfield were made, some shots taken, and one player even suffered an ankle injury. You state that it's ok if teams rest players, play subs, sit back, and defend. That's a key statement there. Tell me this, what do you think happens in a game if BOTH teams independently decide that's going to be their strategy for a game - to sit back and defend? Your answer is what happened that day. The teams played for awhile and then learned that what the other team was doing on the field was exactly the same thing they were doing - sitting back and defending, and only pushing up field occasionally due to their natural soccer instinct, but even then conservatively. Once they realize that, and both teams are doing nothing but sitting back and defending - which you said was ok - the result is what you saw the game slowly evolve into. You can tell from the way the game started and slowly morphed into what is shown on the video that none of this was not pre-planned or ever agreed upon by the coaches. These players have been playing for a decade or more and they simply adjusted with the game as the other team's strategy revealed itself on the field. Referees continually said that there was nothing illegal about what the game turned into and even said that both teams could legally sit down if they wanted to. I'm amazed by the number of people that think they know what happened from watching a 99 second video clip that was filmed late in the 2nd half. And tell me this too...since you say sitting back and defending and playing subs is ok, how would that strategy ever result in a 4 goal victory for Carlsbad, which is the only outcome that would have made any difference whatsoever to the 3rd place team? Before you answer, remember that Carlsbad was already through to the semi-finals regardless of outcome, and that the temp with heat index was 109 that afternoon. Even a fully motivated team would be hard pressed to drop 4 goals on a team in those conditions. People that know the real story and understand soccer and saw how this played out for the full time and in the context of the actual standings get it. No farce, no disgrace, no collusion, no match fixing. The soccer world apparently wanted to see some window dressing of a game played in the manner it was played for the first 30 minutes or so. Same outcome would have occurred, mind you, but those are the optics that those that don't really get it want to have wrapped up with a bow. Will USYS implement some rule changes that address the optics or appearance of effort level of a game? Curious to see how that would be implemented and enforced.

The only disgrace here is the manner in which 3rd place in the bracket Syracuse Development Academy carried on about this both during the match and after. Spewing insults at the CHILDREN playing on both team - both in person and on social media, and even attending these teams' subsequent games to continue to yell at them, and yelling at the other Carlsbad team that wasn't even involved with this game - even at their hotel. Syracuse parents or representatives had to be physically removed from the awards ceremony after the finals because they were going to disrupt the issuance of Carlsbad's finalist awards. Syracuse displayed the most abhorrent soccer behavior I've ever seen in soccer. Deflecting attention from their very poor showing at Nationals to make their players, directors, and families think that had they not been "screwed," they'd have gone through. Yeah, right. Syracuse also fails to consider the fact that the team they beat in their 3rd game to make the goal differential even within the single game max allowed, was a better team than they were, but with nothing for that team to play for, they played subs and sat back...the same thing these teams are accused of is what Syracuse benefitted from! Syracuse wins the national championship for the most revolting behavior ever. It's too bad the widely circulated video clip doesn't pick up the audio of the Syracuse people screaming at minors on the field and on the bench. We saw one Syracuse parent filming close to the benches and I'm sure they couldn't submit that video due to the profanity they were spewing at kids. I look forward to reading about USYS sanctions or reprimands against Syracuse. Let's hear it for SDA - keeping it classy!

 

[LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad]

These clubs have the same issues Hillary Clinton does. JUST BE HONEST.

The match fixing clubs story, in a timeline:

- It was hot, some teams rested starters, we just decided to play less hard than we would normally.
- The coaches didn't talk, the players just decided to fake playing soccer spontaneously.
[No one buys this story]
- Ok, maybe they were directed by their coaches to put on a soccer play instead of compete, but it didn't change the seedings or the tournament at all.
[It's pointed out that it could have affected the seeding]
- Ok, maybe it could have affected the seeding, but it's not against the rules to fix matches.
- Ok, maybe it's against the spirit of the rules, but it's the other club's fault that they weren't trying to score either.

Total fiasco. JUST TELL THE TRUTH.

Here's what they should have done, immediately.

As the DoC, I accept full responsibility for the events in which our team did not compete to the best of their ability. That is not how we train players and goes against the values upon which this club is founded. While factors such as unlikelihood of playoff seeds changing and the incredibly hot weather played a factor in the decision to pretend to play the game, they are no excuse. The coach in question has been disciplined/terminated, and we apologize to the USYS, the soccer community and to our parents. [insert other PR fluff here]

For a guy named "Truth," you sure don't seem to bring any.

 

[Zoro]

Could a referee give cautions for "unsporting behavior"?
Can roaming around the field and not putting in any attacking effort be considered unsportsmanlike?

Sitting on the ground is addressed - yes.
Otherwise no. And as the referees there were likely top of the program they did not consider it unsporting.

 

[LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad]

Why didn't they approach the tournament authorities for approval and just have the authorities mark zeroes on the scorecard? Why the soccer acting session?

All tournament authorities were there, and when Syracuse came storming over to scream at the children on both teams, the officials all said there was nothing illegal about what was taking place on the field. They were there, they were asked, they responded.

 

[LA Galaxy SD - GK Dad]

The video is working. I saw some of it. It is about what I expected. Poor referee. Who likely is highly experienced and may be observed for future promotion.

It would be pretty hard to sanction anyone over that - alone. Paying an official, colluding before the tournament - maybe - if there is a rule about that. But as a game inside the tournament I doubt anything will be done.
That is little different than the 0-10 games each summer where the "sporting" thing to do is kick it around, when 0 coach asked 10 coach to back off.

The head of referees was there. In fact, it's why part of that video is so funny - to see the center ref hustling around to get into position. We all wondered why he was continuing to hustle so much. The answer is because his boss was there observing and also rendered the opinion that what was taking place on the field was legal.

 

[Surfref]

Wow. That's just awful. What's funny is watching the ref in that clip. Hustling to get in position and running around like he's calling an actual game while the players stand and roll the ball at each other (one of them is practically sitting in the background).

That referee should be commended for doing the job he gets paid for. It seems like he was the only one with some integrity on the field or sideline. I bet if the players had been forewarned of the fallout from this that they would have put more effort into the game.