Amanda Cromwell in the news again

[Sike]

What kind of entitlement world do we live in where people blame coaches not giving playing time for their mental health problems? The reality is most of the privileged girls who grew up playing elite soccer have never faced any real adversity in their lives until they go to college. They never had to worry about playing time. They almost always come from families of means. They were often showered with accolades, including HS All-American, YNT, all-region or conference, were probably on the local news and in the local paper more than once, and were usually among the more popular girls in HS. Then they head off to one of the elite programs in the country, which is also an elite academic institution, where they are no longer under the constant protection of their parents and the friends with whom they grew up. Their parents probably reinforced how they were perfect and the best for 18 straight years, and then sent them off to reality with probably zero experience coping with actual adversity. Now they're surrounded with teammates who are among the best players in the country while simultaneously having to deal with rigors of being a young adult and making all new friends all simultaneously. Many of their teammates have been training and lifting 6 days a week for years and already have their established friend groups. They find out in an instant that they aren't all that special compared to the elite of the elite who now surround them. It turns out they aren't as good at soccer as they thought, they aren't as gifted academically as they thought, the friend groups don't come as easily as they did growing up, and mommy and daddy aren't there to save them every day anymore. It turns out that success now requires hard work far beyond what they're accustomed to, and it also turns out that sometimes there is no amount of hard work that will make someone better than the players in front of them.

Making the adjustment from little princess to adult is often a tough one. Blaming a coach for causing too much stress by not giving her playing time is an absolute cop out, and makes a caricature of mental health problems. It is complete bs to discard or ignore the actual and important reasons why someone is seeking mental health assistance, and instead blame a coach for not giving the player playing time. Honestly, a lack of playing time is never the reason someone "needs" to seek mental health assistance. If a parent is blaming a lack of playing time for their kid's emotional distress, it's probably time to take a step back and consider the impact that their own disappointment in their daughter's lack of playing time is having on her emotional state.

While I agree that just lack of playing time alone isn't a reason for a college player to blame a coach for mental health issues, I have seen verbal abuse first hand and it is real with many coaches at top college programs (I have no specific knowledge of Cromwell, so am just speaking in general). If a coach tells a player that she needs to improve on x or y to get a chance to see more playing time, that's fine. But when a coach yells "you are a f*#king embarrassment to our program and will never see any playing time" at a player for a mistake made in practice, it is behavior that could impact mental health. Can't tell you how many times I have heard some form of "are you stupid" come out of a coaches mouth and it really isn't an acceptable way to try to develop players. I know part of it is old school coaching, but it can be over the top and abusive. All the more reason that kids need to do their homework on coaches before they commit.

 

[MacDre]

Not disputing your comments, except that I don't really know what you mean by "mental health." Yes, I can see how yelling at a kid and calling him or her "stupid" might hurt feelings. But so does quietly telling a kid in respectful terms that she is not good enough to play on your team and she is going to lose her scholarship. In both cases, the effect might be devastating to the player, but does either "impact" one's mental health?

When I think of mental health, I consider conditions ranging from schizophrenia to agoraphobia. These all have some sort of DSM designation. But just having your feelings hurt, even if done in a very nasty way, does not qualify as a "mental health" condition. I can see how yelling at a person might lower self-esteem and maybe even make someone cry out of sadness, but is that really a "mental health" condition?

I’d say an anxiety disorder could result if the “experience” was traumatic enough.

 

[dad4]

Not disputing your comments, except that I don't really know what you mean by "mental health." Yes, I can see how yelling at a kid and calling him or her "stupid" might hurt feelings. But so does quietly telling a kid in respectful terms that she is not good enough to play on your team and she is going to lose her scholarship. In both cases, the effect might be devastating to the player, but does either "impact" one's mental health?

When I think of mental health, I consider conditions ranging from schizophrenia to agoraphobia. These all have some sort of DSM designation. But just having your feelings hurt, even if done in a very nasty way, does not qualify as a "mental health" condition. I can see how yelling at a person might lower self-esteem and maybe even make someone cry out of sadness, but is that really a "mental health" condition?

I think the point was that some coaches see no need to be quiet or respectful.

It happens less at the youth level. If you are abusive to a kid, the parents will be talking to the DOC within a month, and that kid will be playing against you within a year. Lose too many starters that way, and the DOC will find someone else to coach.

Colleges don't have those guard rails, so they get more bad headlines.

 

[GoldenGate]

First, you are not wrong when you bring up the issue of what can happen to any high-school player who moves on to an elite soccer college. I imagine it can be quite an adjustment in terms of learning how good the competition can be while trying to compete academically and build a social life.

But what does this have to do with Amanda Cromwell and the Orlando Pride, which is a professional team? Cromwell was suspended while an investigation is being made about whether she retaliated against a player (or players) who complained about her. Cromwell may have had valid competitive reasons against playing someone who is struggling with her mental health (if that was the basis of the original complaint). But retaliation should not be condoned.

That is kinda my point. Speculating that someone struggled with her mental health because she wasn't getting playing time has nothing to with a propensity by Cromwell to mistreat players. In fact, that doesn't have anything to do with Cromwell at all since there would always be 20 or so players on her roster who just weren't going to play but would instead have to suffer through the fact that their youth soccer skill was only good enough to get them favorable admission into an elite university plus the status symbol of being on one of the best teams in the country. Ultimately, there isn't a single person here who can identify a single inappropriate word Cromwell has ever said in her life. No one. And no one here has even the slightest clue what did or didn't happen at Orlando either.

It's really easy to throw around the word "retaliation" when you don't have any idea what actually happened. People claim "retaliation" all the time when they don't get things their way. But it's perfectly acceptable "retaliation" if they get benched or sent home because they aren't fit enough to play and aren't willing to do the work expected of a professional athlete to get fit. It is perfectly acceptable "retaliation" to bench a player because they have a poor attitude or won't play where the coach wants them, or won't make the pass when they want to shoot or dribble. It is perfectly acceptable "retaliation" to discipline and even make an example of players in front of their peers depending on their level of behavior. In fact, in the vast majority of instances in which people claim they were "retaliated against", the reality is they deserved exactly what they got. Worse, the vast majority of those who claim "retaliation" are doing a disservice to the few people who make legitimate abuse claims, whose legitimate claims often get buried under all the bullshit and skepticism caused by the constant whining of people with bogus claims. Maybe Cromwell did something really bad, or maybe not. Who knows at this point.

 

[Sike]

Not disputing your comments, except that I don't really know what you mean by "mental health." Yes, I can see how yelling at a kid and calling him or her "stupid" might hurt feelings. But so does quietly telling a kid in respectful terms that she is not good enough to play on your team and she is going to lose her scholarship. In both cases, the effect might be devastating to the player, but does either "impact" one's mental health?

When I think of mental health, I consider conditions ranging from schizophrenia to agoraphobia. These all have some sort of DSM designation. But just having your feelings hurt, even if done in a very nasty way, does not qualify as a "mental health" condition. I can see how yelling at a person might lower self-esteem and maybe even make someone cry out of sadness, but is that really a "mental health" condition?

Anxiety and depression are real mental health issues. It is one thing to expect an 18 year-old to have the ability to handle lack of playing time. It is quite another to expect them to handle lack of playing time while being belittled and yelled at in a disrespectful way on a daily basis. I realize these college coaches are under a lot of pressure too, but some of what goes on should be considered unacceptable to everyone.

 

[GoldenGate]

While I agree that just lack of playing time alone isn't a reason for a college player to blame a coach for mental health issues, I have seen verbal abuse first hand and it is real with many coaches at top college programs (I have no specific knowledge of Cromwell, so am just speaking in general). If a coach tells a player that she needs to improve on x or y to get a chance to see more playing time, that's fine. But when a coach yells "you are a f*#king embarrassment to our program and will never see any playing time" at a player for a mistake made in practice, it is behavior that could impact mental health. Can't tell you how many times I have heard some form of "are you stupid" come out of a coaches mouth and it really isn't an acceptable way to try to develop players. I know part of it is old school coaching, but it can be over the top and abusive. All the more reason that kids need to do their homework on coaches before they commit.

Yes, a handful of coaches are abusive. But what do your hypotheticals have to do with soccerfan4life insinuating that Cromwell abuses players because: (1) he heard from someone whose daughter allegedly struggled mentally over a lack of playing time; and (2) she is suspended pending an investigation at Orlando that no one knows anything about? No one here has any evidence that Cromwell has ever mistreated anyone.

 

[Sike]

That is kinda my point. Speculating that someone struggled with her mental health because she wasn't getting playing time has nothing to with a propensity by Cromwell to mistreat players. In fact, that doesn't have anything to do with Cromwell at all since there would always be 20 or so players on her roster who just weren't going to play but would instead have to suffer through the fact that their youth soccer skill was only good enough to get them favorable admission into an elite university plus the status symbol of being on one of the best teams in the country. Ultimately, there isn't a single person here who can identify a single inappropriate word Cromwell has ever said in her life. No one. And no one here has even the slightest clue what did or didn't happen at Orlando either.

It's really easy to throw around the word "retaliation" when you don't have any idea what actually happened. People claim "retaliation" all the time when they don't get things their way. But it's perfectly acceptable "retaliation" if they get benched or sent home because they aren't fit enough to play and aren't willing to do the work expected of a professional athlete to get fit. It is perfectly acceptable "retaliation" to bench a player because they have a poor attitude or won't play where the coach wants them, or won't make the pass when they want to shoot or dribble. It is perfectly acceptable "retaliation" to discipline and even make an example of players in front of their peers depending on their level of behavior. In fact, in the vast majority of instances in which people claim they were "retaliated against", the reality is they deserved exactly what they got. Worse, the vast majority of those who claim "retaliation" are doing a disservice to the few people who make legitimate abuse claims, whose legitimate claims often get buried under all the bullshit and skepticism caused by the constant whining of people with bogus claims. Maybe Cromwell did something really bad, or maybe not. Who knows at this point.

I acknowledge that I have no idea what happened at Orlando. However, even in the world we live in today, I find it incredibly hard to believe that Orlando suspended her for this long if it was something along the lines of not giving someone playing time because the player wasn't in shape or because of a poor attitude.

 

[Carlsbad7]

It becomes abusive with college coaches because they 100% control the players ability to continue attending the school because of scholarship indented servitude. Worse yet college coaches know who they can push around to get what they deem "results".

If you play in college choose your team wisely.

 

[lafalafa]

Pattern of low moral ethics, verbal and or other abuse, favoritism, shady roster dealings, breaking rules, etc sooner or later have a habit of catching up with a HC and they cohorts (assistant) especially in the public professional ranks.

Some learn there lessons and correct while other continue until they have no body else to scapegoat.

 

[GoldenGate]

I acknowledge that I have no idea what happened at Orlando. However, even in the world we live in today, I find it incredibly hard to believe that Orlando suspended her for this long if it was something along the lines of not giving someone playing time because the player wasn't in shape or because of a poor attitude.

If she had done something that was confirmable severe abuse, she would have been terminated a long time ago.

In reality, in the absence of very obvious direct wrongdoing, it takes a long time to conduct a proper investigation and make a thoughtful, educated decision based on the best available information that is almost always somewhat speculative and equivocal. It can take a couple weeks just to retain a reputable third party to even start conducting an investigation. Here, it probably took even longer than it normally should if the NWSL was involved in the approval process, which it should have been. Once the investigation finally commences, it can take a few more weeks to investigate, especially if there are a lot of witnesses and follow-up is required, or there are complications, which there often are. It can then take a week or two to draft a report. It can then take another couple weeks for the NWSL and Orlando to work out the best solution, especially if there is an element of he said/she said that cannot be definitively proven one way or another. It takes time to decide how best to handle a situation when their is equivocal information and the options are to find against Cromwell and run the risk of a breach of contract/wrongful termination claim, or find against the complaining player and run the risk of a discrimination claim. In the end, investigations are important and should be treated as such.

When you don't know what was alleged, who might have helpful information, and needs to be interviewed, it's really easy to claim that a decision should be reached quickly. But when a quick decision is made that you don't like, you'll just turn around and claim the investigation was obviously shoddy because they rushed it. It is much better to take as as much time as you need to be as exhaustive as possible when the end result will inevitably result in a decision that someone doesn't like and genuinely believes is wrong. There is absolutely no reason to rush this given Cromwell is on a leave.

 

[GoldenGate]

It becomes abusive with college coaches because they 100% control the players ability to continue attending the school because of scholarship indented servitude. Worse yet college coaches know who they can push around to get what they deem "results".

If you play in college choose your team wisely.

Wow, what an incredible example of the American entitlement world we live in. Offering someone admission to a college that wouldn't otherwise give them the time of day plus scholarship money on top of that is not "indentured servitude". There is literally nothing stopping your kid from declining free money or quitting at any time and becoming a regular student like everyone else.

Coaches have zero control over a player's ability to continue attending a school. They can only impact their scholarship, and even their ability to do that is often limited. Do you know who has complete financial control over your daughter's ability to attend a school, however? You do dumb shit, so make enough money to afford the school you're letting her attend. But if your idea of fiscal responsibility is to cross your fingers that someone else will pay 100% of your daughter's tuition for all four years no matter how shitty or indifferent a soccer player she becomes, the real problem is that you're an idiot for failing to realize that getting any money to play a sport that loses money should never be assumed, and is a freakin' privilege.

 

[SoccerFan4Life]

Blaming a coach for causing too much stress by not giving her playing time is an absolute cop out, and makes a caricature of mental health problems.

You are right, you cant just blame a coach for emotional distress except for when that coach is under investigation of doing the same to adult players. Suddenly this becomes a trend and previous behavior needs to be inspected. There's more to the story that I shared and I cannot get into more details because clearly I need to respect the player's privacy

Here's another example, Jimmy Obledo was one of the best youth soccer coaches in Socal with Fullerton Rangers. He was a great trainer but the biggest Ahole out there. I personally saw him tell a player that she didnt belong in his team because she doesnt play well in the middle of the game. Parents from both teams couldnt believe what the coach said to this 12 year old player. Now he is under investigation and fired for player abuse with USL.

Red Wolves Head Coach Jimmy Obleda suspended by league - WDEF

CHATTANOOGA, Tennessee (WDEF)-Red Wolves Head Coach Jimmy Obleda has been suspended by the USL Friday. When News 12 reached out for comment we were sent this official club statement. “The Chattanooga Red Wolves SC received notice today from the USL of the provisional suspension of Head Coach...

www.wdef.com

Some parents might not care how their kids get treated as long as they get the scholarships or the W. Some parents dont care until their kid is so messed up that they suddenly care. Look at the abuse from that gymnastics coach. How many Ws did he get in the Olympics? How many girls did he mess up? Parents cant claim to be completely innocent of his abuse. You know there were signs but hey as long as their player made the olympics, who cares!

 

[GoldenGate]

You are right, you cant just blame a coach for emotional distress except for when that coach is under investigation of doing the same to adult players. Suddenly this becomes a trend and previous behavior needs to be inspected. There's more to the story that I shared and I cannot get into more details because clearly I need to respect the player's privacy

Here's another example, Jimmy Obledo was one of the best youth soccer coaches in Socal with Fullerton Rangers. He was a great trainer but the biggest Ahole out there. I personally saw him tell a player that she didnt belong in his team because she doesnt play well in the middle of the game. Parents from both teams couldnt believe what the coach said to this 12 year old player. Now he is under investigation and fired for player abuse with USL.

Red Wolves Head Coach Jimmy Obleda suspended by league - WDEF

CHATTANOOGA, Tennessee (WDEF)-Red Wolves Head Coach Jimmy Obleda has been suspended by the USL Friday. When News 12 reached out for comment we were sent this official club statement. “The Chattanooga Red Wolves SC received notice today from the USL of the provisional suspension of Head Coach...

www.wdef.com

Some parents might not care how their kids get treated as long as they get the scholarships or the W. Some parents dont care until their kid is so messed up that they suddenly care. Look at the abuse from that gymnastics coach. How many Ws did he get in the Olympics? How many girls did he mess up? Parents cant claim to be completely innocent of his abuse. You know there were signs but hey as long as their player made the olympics, who cares!

Slow down buddy, you've built about 10 bridges too far here. So you're saying Cromwell must have abused players because: (1) you know someone whose daughter didn't get playing time at UCLA; and (2) two other coaches in U.S. history (Jimmy Obledo and an unidentified gymnastics coach) were allegedly abusive.

 

[Happened again]

Yes, a handful of coaches are abusive. But what do your hypotheticals have to do with soccerfan4life insinuating that Cromwell abuses players because: (1) he heard from someone whose daughter allegedly struggled mentally over a lack of playing time; and (2) she is suspended pending an investigation at Orlando that no one knows anything about? No one here has any evidence that Cromwell has ever mistreated anyone.

It's dummies like you that shouldn't utter words on topics beyond their grasp. The ambulance chasing lawyer in you comes out.

Teen suicide is a thing, mental health issues are a thing, especiallay amongst elite athletes. Takes one kid to pull the trigger, take the pill, tighten the noose, jump off of the roof/balcony to bring back everyone to reality. Check the news the last 6 months or so? not likely

The jury is still out on Cromwell and she shoudn't be judged prematurely. Abuse of power and position is a common tactic/technique employed by coaches, happens at all levels. It gets worse as the stakes get higher.

 

[GoldenGate]

It's dummies like you that shouldn't utter words on topics beyond their grasp. The ambulance chasing lawyer in you comes out.

Teen suicide is a thing, mental health issues are a thing, especiallay amongst elite athletes. Takes one kid to pull the trigger, take the pill, tighten the noose, jump off of the roof/balcony to bring back everyone to reality. Check the news the last 6 months or so? not likely

The jury is still out on Cromwell and she shoudn't be judged prematurely. Abuse of power and position is a common tactic/technique employed by coaches, happens at all levels. It gets worse as the stakes get higher.

I see, this is not about Amanda Cromwell, despite the name on the thread. It is about feeding your self-pity. Have you ever considered how your "the world is so horrible" attitude impacts the mental health of your own children btw?

And no, mental health issues are not a thing "especially amongst elite athletes". In fact, you just picked the one demographic in which mental health is the least of a thing. Mental health issues and suicide are actually a thing "especially" among people who grew up in crushing poverty and oppression. It is a thing "especially" among veterans. It is absolutely a thing "especially" among the LGBTQ community, yet I don't see you stepping in to do anything about the folks in the other thread who decided it would be fun to "out" a ten year old girl. Yeah, you're a real hero pretending you give a shit about the mental health of our children.

 

[SoccerFan4Life]

[/QU[/QUOTE]

Slow down buddy, you've built about 10 bridges too far here. So you're saying Cromwell must have abused players because: (1) you know someone whose daughter didn't get playing time at UCLA; and (2) two other coaches in U.S. history (Jimmy Obledo and an unidentified gymnastics coach) were allegedly abusive.

Where there's smoke there's fire. It's been more than 2 months and she is still on leave pending investigation. What do you think happened???

Read this statement: ....Amy Turner was bought out of her contract amid the investigation into head coach Amanda Cromwell and assistant coach Sam Greene for violation of NWSL policy against discrimination, harassment and bullying.

 

[GoldenGate]

[/QU

Where there's smoke there's fire. It's been more than 2 months and she is still on leave pending investigation. What do you think happened???

Read this statement: ....Amy Turner was bought out of her contract amid the investigation into head coach Amanda Cromwell and assistant coach Sam Greene for violation of NWSL policy against discrimination, harassment and bullying.

[/QUOTE]


I have already answered your question. I don't know what happened. I am confident, however, that her behavior was not obvious egregious wrongdoing because she was not fired immediately, as I have already said. Given how long this is taking, it is much more likely that the allegations probably boil down to a lot of "he said/she said" that cannot be definitively proven one way or another. Which, in turn, is requiring a lot of interviews to determine whether there has been any history of behavior similar to what has been leveled against Cromwell, whether there is a history of bs whining about the person(s) who complained, and probably an evaluation of how bad the player(s) who complain suck and deserved whatever Cromwell did to them.

You claim "where there's smoke there's fire." The problem with this trope is that you and your friends have not even identified smoke. If one of her UCLA players suffered from mental health problems due to a lack of playing time, that is not Cromwell's problem or doing. Placing a manager on a leave pending an investigation is not smoke either. It is standard practice with an employer that is taking its responsibilities seriously. And who knows why Amy Turner was bought out of her contract. Given that she is not very good, however, I would say it's inappropriate to speculate that her departure was the result of harassment and bullying by Cromwell. More likely, she is gone because it was time for the career of an aging soccer player who was never that good to end.

 

[SoccerFan4Life]

[/QUOTE]

You claim "where there's smoke there's fire." The problem with this trope is that you and your friends have not even identified smoke. If one of her UCLA players suffered from mental health problems due to a lack of playing time, that is not Cromwell's problem or doing. Placing a manager on a leave pending an investigation is not smoke either. It is standard practice with an employer that is taking its responsibilities seriously. And who knows why Amy Turner was bought out of her contract. Given that she is not very good, however, I would say it's inappropriate to speculate that her departure was the result of harassment and bullying by Cromwell. More likely, she is gone because it was time for the career of an aging soccer player who was never that good to end.
[/QUOTE]

Hey man, you sound like Amanda's dad or relative getting so defensive. Time will tell exactly what happened. By the way placing an employee on leave is some serious stuff in any industry. Clearly they spelled out the reason for the leave is due to bullying and harrasment. That alone is some serious allegations. Lets just see what happens next.

 

[Happened again]

I see, this is not about Amanda Cromwell, despite the name on the thread. It is about feeding your self-pity. Have you ever considered how your "the world is so horrible" attitude impacts the mental health of your own children btw?

And no, mental health issues are not a thing "especially amongst elite athletes". In fact, you just picked the one demographic in which mental health is the least of a thing. Mental health issues and suicide are actually a thing "especially" among people who grew up in crushing poverty and oppression. It is a thing "especially" among veterans. It is absolutely a thing "especially" among the LGBTQ community, yet I don't see you stepping in to do anything about the folks in the other thread who decided it would be fun to "out" a ten year old girl. Yeah, you're a real hero pretending you give a shit about the mental health of our children.

Oh sweetie - As usual, you talk out of your ass and your boy @espola steps in with a 1 finger salute. Your personal attack on me and my offspring is perfect, your panties in bunch are showing. As for the 10 year old girs being outed? have no idea what you are talking.

As if suicide and adverse mental health discriminates - what a wholesome idiot you are. All of the things you mention above are true except for your idiot take on elite athletes not taking their own life or sufferring adverse mental health. Small percentage sure, but not a "thing" is quite the JD take, which I bet is something you aspired to be.

 

[GoldenGate]

You claim "where there's smoke there's fire." The problem with this trope is that you and your friends have not even identified smoke. If one of her UCLA players suffered from mental health problems due to a lack of playing time, that is not Cromwell's problem or doing. Placing a manager on a leave pending an investigation is not smoke either. It is standard practice with an employer that is taking its responsibilities seriously. And who knows why Amy Turner was bought out of her contract. Given that she is not very good, however, I would say it's inappropriate to speculate that her departure was the result of harassment and bullying by Cromwell. More likely, she is gone because it was time for the career of an aging soccer player who was never that good to end.
[/QUOTE]

Hey man, you sound like Amanda's dad or relative getting so defensive. Time will tell exactly what happened. By the way placing an employee on leave is some serious stuff in any industry. Clearly they spelled out the reason for the leave is due to bullying and harrasment. That alone is some serious allegations. Lets just see what happens next.
[/QUOTE]

No, they did not spell out that she was on leave for bullying and harassment. She was placed on leave because someone apparently alleged she violated a policy against discrimination, harassment and bullying. Employees allege this all the time, but it almost always turns out the person complaining was just a whiny loser who couldn't handle being called out for being lazy and incompetent and who failed to understand how a boss/subordinate relationship works and that jobs actually require providing competent work product, not just taking an employer's money while fucking around and complaining all the time. Fun fact, btw, did you know that approximately 95% of the cases investigated by the EEOC are dismissed as rubbish? That's a shit ton of b.s.

You sound like you're Amy Turner's dad or relative getting so defensive.