The End of Late Bloomers?

[Mystery Train]

I like this discussion. It has been in my mind the past couple of years. As my oldest gets closer to high school age, I may decide to drop club sports and join AYSO and community basketball leagues to be able to maintain multi sports involvement (actually multi-activities in general).

I think if more families made this choice for their kids, especially the older ones, it would create a broad, positive effect. I'd like my son to do this (he's going into 8th grade) but it's taking some convincing. There is a definite vacuum of participation in AYSO as the ages go up. If more of his peers did the same, it would be more fun for him. The club culture has now painted a stigma onto AYSO as being for little kids only, and if you play it as an older kid, it's not seen as cool.

 

[jojon]

I think if more families made this choice for their kids, especially the older ones, it would create a broad, positive effect. I'd like my son to do this (he's going into 8th grade) but it's taking some convincing. There is a definite vacuum of participation in AYSO as the ages go up. If more of his peers did the same, it would be more fun for him. The club culture has now painted a stigma onto AYSO as being for little kids only, and if you play it as an older kid, it's not seen as cool.

That is correct. In a few tryouts I experienced, the coach is screaming "...you are not in AYSO anymore..." to the kids. It is a flight 3 team so my son is telling me that he does not like the coach, especially when most of the kids are below his level. We did not join the team, but most clubs definitely paint that picture for the kids and parents.

 

[socalkdg]

It should be required that all field goalies also play futsal. (In futsal goalies are encouraged to come out + also be field players.)

My daughter would only play in the field during futsal. Great time to put the other players in goal to get a new respect for the position.

 

[socalkdg]

My kid didn't start soccer until age 9. She had played baseball and basketball. Typical tomboy as the only girl playing with all boy teams. She broke her arm, so she asked for a soccer ball and started kicking that around. She was faster than all the other girls so she played striker. Started playing in goal part time ages 10-11. Age 12 she went full time at keeper. Got a new head coach who loved to do rondo and possession style drills and knew nothing about goalkeeper so she was as good with her feet and passes as the top players on the team. Any goalkeeping training was done privately.

I was told a major ECNL club, U17(guess U18 now) at Surf Cup, had their backup keeper in and didn't play back to her once even though the team was up by multiple goals and the other team never even got a shot off. What is that? The field players need to know where to be positioned, how to play back, and accept passes in their own end. I still see a number of NWSL keepers that definitely could be better with their feet. Kailen Sheridan is one of my favorites.

Find a head coach that will work on foot drills and passing, have your kid make sure they put in a couple hours a week on this. Then spend another couple practices per week with a private keeper coach that works on footwork, hands, catching, positioning, diving, etc. Allow your kid to play a different sport in High School as well. Mine has played Varsity Basketball and ran track.

 

[Grace T.]

My kid didn't start soccer until age 9. She had played baseball and basketball. Typical tomboy as the only girl playing with all boy teams. She broke her arm, so she asked for a soccer ball and started kicking that around. She was faster than all the other girls so she played striker. Started playing in goal part time ages 10-11. Age 12 she went full time at keeper. Got a new head coach who loved to do rondo and possession style drills and knew nothing about goalkeeper so she was as good with her feet and passes as the top players on the team. Any goalkeeping training was done privately.

I was told a major ECNL club, U17(guess U18 now) at Surf Cup, had their backup keeper in and didn't play back to her once even though the team was up by multiple goals and the other team never even got a shot off. What is that? The field players need to know where to be positioned, how to play back, and accept passes in their own end. I still see a number of NWSL keepers that definitely could be better with their feet. Kailen Sheridan is one of my favorites.

Find a head coach that will work on foot drills and passing, have your kid make sure they put in a couple hours a week on this. Then spend another couple practices per week with a private keeper coach that works on footwork, hands, catching, positioning, diving, etc. Allow your kid to play a different sport in High School as well. Mine has played Varsity Basketball and ran track.

Unfortunately this is an issue more on the girls end than the boys end (at least at the higher levels, olders). The boys in MLS Next play what's called the "American Possession Style". It's neither 100% possessive tiki taka, or 100% direct, though there is a lot of variation from club to clubs. It's because that's what's being trained across the boys academies right now. So if they want to stay in MLS Next, the MLS teams toe the line and adopt a similar style of play. That style of play trickles down to the other second level boys teams because it's what's expected in the club. ECNL is also very wide on the girls side whereas MLS Next is somewhat more streamlined (given the split in MLS Next/ECNL on the boys end). I've watched quite a few boys ECNL games from outside of SoCal and they are less likely to play the American Possession Style. It's one benefit the boys get from the academies being built into the tier system.

 

[Grace T.]

Unfortunately this is an issue more on the girls end than the boys end (at least at the higher levels, olders). The boys in MLS Next play what's called the "American Possession Style". It's neither 100% possessive tiki taka, or 100% direct, though there is a lot of variation from club to clubs. It's because that's what's being trained across the boys academies right now. So if they want to stay in MLS Next, the MLS teams toe the line and adopt a similar style of play. That style of play trickles down to the other second level boys teams because it's what's expected in the club. ECNL is also very wide on the girls side whereas MLS Next is somewhat more streamlined (given the split in MLS Next/ECNL on the boys end). I've watched quite a few boys ECNL games from outside of SoCal and they are less likely to play the American Possession Style. It's one benefit the boys get from the academies being built into the tier system.

Oh the sad reality too is that what doesn't help this is that there is a shortage of good girl goalkeeper given the breadth and size of ECNL. Good girl goalkeepers are harder to find than on the boys end and you need a keeper that can actually play with their feet in order to implement this. I'm sure yours is different, but once they hit about age 13, if you look at the GK camps, with a few exceptions the girls are simply a year or more behind the boys. A boy and girl keeper of the same skill at age 14....the girl might very well be able to find a slot in ECNL....the boy might still be playing higher flight 2.

 

[Mystery Train]

Oh the sad reality too is that what doesn't help this is that there is a shortage of good girl goalkeeper given the breadth and size of ECNL. Good girl goalkeepers are harder to find than on the boys end and you need a keeper that can actually play with their feet in order to implement this. I'm sure yours is different, but once they hit about age 13, if you look at the GK camps, with a few exceptions the girls are simply a year or more behind the boys. A boy and girl keeper of the same skill at age 14....the girl might very well be able to find a slot in ECNL....the boy might still be playing higher flight 2.

You described part of this problem in your post just before: the real issue with girls GK development in terms of foot skill/ball control/passing out of the back vs. boys has to do with the different destinations for top players. NCAA men's soccer is a huge step down from men's professional soccer, and is in no way, shape, or form, considered a significant talent feeder for professional soccer leagues here or abroad. Granted, collegiate men's players can and do end up playing pro, but it's not like it is for women. NCAA women's soccer, on the other hand, IS the primary feeder for professional women's soccer (at least in the US, where the women's game has been ahead of other countries because of Title IX and our comparatively progressive view of women and sports). This is a problem because in college sports, four years of constantly rotating player personnel and coaches getting fired for losing games means that ain't nobody got time to teach tiki-taka and possession ball when it's a whole lot easier to just recruit a GK with a cannon for a leg and a forward with sprinter speed and play it long all day long. In this respect, I compare women's soccer to college football. When HS football was centered around the run game and playing wish-bone option offense, there was no sophistication in teaching youth quarterbacks, so the college game reflected that. Now that big money is spent on developing young QB's, the college game is much more pass oriented. College coaches in any sport really don't have time to teach and develop anything. Their job is to win right now. And in soccer, that means recruit big, fast athletes and play direct. So the US women's game reflects that reality. It takes a huge, concentrated effort at the youth levels to try to reform that, but even then it's more the tail wagging the dog because 90% of parents putting their girls in elite club soccer think there's a college scholly at the end of the road. So that destination doesn't really reward training GK's for advanced passing and distribution skill. For boys at the elite level, it's a whole different story because at the pro level, a keeper with great foot skills makes a difference and you're looking at developing a player for the next 10-15 years of their career vs just 4 for a college women's keeper.

 

[Grace T.]

You described part of this problem in your post just before: the real issue with girls GK development in terms of foot skill/ball control/passing out of the back vs. boys has to do with the different destinations for top players. NCAA men's soccer is a huge step down from men's professional soccer, and is in no way, shape, or form, considered a significant talent feeder for professional soccer leagues here or abroad. Granted, collegiate men's players can and do end up playing pro, but it's not like it is for women. NCAA women's soccer, on the other hand, IS the primary feeder for professional women's soccer (at least in the US, where the women's game has been ahead of other countries because of Title IX and our comparatively progressive view of women and sports). This is a problem because in college sports, four years of constantly rotating player personnel and coaches getting fired for losing games means that ain't nobody got time to teach tiki-taka and possession ball when it's a whole lot easier to just recruit a GK with a cannon for a leg and a forward with sprinter speed and play it long all day long. In this respect, I compare women's soccer to college football. When HS football was centered around the run game and playing wish-bone option offense, there was no sophistication in teaching youth quarterbacks, so the college game reflected that. Now that big money is spent on developing young QB's, the college game is much more pass oriented. College coaches in any sport really don't have time to teach and develop anything. Their job is to win right now. And in soccer, that means recruit big, fast athletes and play direct. So the US women's game reflects that reality. It takes a huge, concentrated effort at the youth levels to try to reform that, but even then it's more the tail wagging the dog because 90% of parents putting their girls in elite club soccer think there's a college scholly at the end of the road. So that destination doesn't really reward training GK's for advanced passing and distribution skill. For boys at the elite level, it's a whole different story because at the pro level, a keeper with great foot skills makes a difference and you're looking at developing a player for the next 10-15 years of their career vs just 4 for a college women's keeper.

Agree, but the vast majority of the boys playing MLS Next/EA or even the academies aren't going to see pro ball either. It's just because they have the academies in their tiered system, that they get the benefit of the training as it trickles down to lower levels.

They also have the benefit that the competition for their slots is much more severe, where the women mostly see such competition only at the highest slots. It forges them.

It's going to be a problem in the women's international game BTW. Europe is about 10 years from being on par with the USWNT if not sooner and unless something changes will pass them.

 

[Mystery Train]

Agree, but the vast majority of the boys playing MLS Next/EA or even the academies aren't going to see pro ball either. It's just because they have the academies in their tiered system, that they get the benefit of the training as it trickles down to lower levels.

No doubt. Just like the vast majority of girls playing ECNL aren't going to Div 1 Power 5 schools. We're saying the same thing. The point is that the boys benefit from the system design by getting training geared for the pro game.

They also have the benefit that the competition for their slots is much more severe, where the women mostly see such competition only at the highest slots. It forges them.

Eh, I kind of disagree. But then, I don't have a son competing at the MLS Next level, so I don't know what I don't know. What I do know is that competition for slots at the ECNL girls level is pretty damn intense.

It's going to be a problem in the women's international game BTW. Europe is about 10 years from being on par with the USWNT if not sooner and unless something changes will pass them.

100% agree. Based on watching the women's Euros this year, I think it might be WAY sooner than 10 years. Might be 4... or less? Our big advantage in depth of athletes on a roster may continue for a while, but look out.

 

[socalkdg]

Watch the U20's this week and next in World Cup. 1/3 of the players this team will end up on the National Team (based off past history). FS1 and FS2 starting tomorrow.

 

[Grace T.]

Eh, I kind of disagree. But then, I don't have a son competing at the MLS Next level, so I don't know what I don't know. What I do know is that competition for slots at the ECNL girls level is pretty damn intense.

Oh I have no doubt that for the top end ECNL girls the competition as between them is intense.

What the boys have, though, is the competition for a flight 2 team can also be intense (while the girl's teams are advertising can you please be our goalkeeper, full scholarship).

And if you look at the flight 2 boy goalkeeper of the same age in a GK camp, they can be of equivalent skill as a (not necessarily top flight) ECNL girl keeper, particularly once you hit the late tweens.

 

[MacDre]

Europe is about 10 years from being on par with the USWNT if not sooner and unless something changes will pass them.

I disagree with the 10 year estimate, I think Europe has already passed us. I think you are most likely using the wrong metric to assess where we are. Most folks look at our depth when comparing us to Europe and I think that is 100% wrong. I think the better metric is: how many of our State Associations would have been competitive in the Euro’s? Afterall, a State here is about the same size as a country in Europe in size and population.

 

[MamaBear5]

A word of warning...for the past few years my kiddo was on a team where they play a possession game. My kid has gotten really good with her feet (worked her butt off to advance this skill) and acts like an additional defender. 90%, if not more, of her balls are played on the ground out of the back. In talks with college coaches their statement is "we (the college) play direct and haven't seen what you can do with the long ball"

Make sure you kiddo shows in showcases that she can do both (mine can do a long ball - its all her high school team can/will do) even if it isn't the way the team normally does things.

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

A word of warning...for the past few years my kiddo was on a team where they play a possession game. My kid has gotten really good with her feet (worked her butt off to advance this skill) and acts like an additional defender. 90%, if not more, of her balls are played on the ground out of the back. In talks with college coaches their statement is "we (the college) play direct and haven't seen what you can do with the long ball"

Make sure you kiddo shows in showcases that she can do both (mine can do a long ball - its all her high school team can/will do) even if it isn't the way the team normally does things.

LOL. Yeah, definitely been times sitting with my kid watching a (guys) D1 game harkening back in my head to his U9 coach going "You know, if we just put two big kids in back and two fast kids up front and had the big kids kick the ball to the fast kids we'd win every game. But that's not development".

 

[Grace T.]

A word of warning...for the past few years my kiddo was on a team where they play a possession game. My kid has gotten really good with her feet (worked her butt off to advance this skill) and acts like an additional defender. 90%, if not more, of her balls are played on the ground out of the back. In talks with college coaches their statement is "we (the college) play direct and haven't seen what you can do with the long ball"

Make sure you kiddo shows in showcases that she can do both (mine can do a long ball - its all her high school team can/will do) even if it isn't the way the team normally does things.

In the boys game the American possession style pushed by the mls teams seems to mix up a combo of both short and long balls largely because another component is the high press (for an example see what happened to de gea in the second goal over the weekend). It’s also why for the defensive line aerials are so important and if you have a boy playing there’s no way to avoid headers (as outlined in another thread here…attackers use it on offense, defenders for the defensive line)

 

[EvilGoalie 21]

LOL. Yeah, definitely been times sitting with my kid watching a (guys) D1 game harkening back in my head to his U9 coach going "You know, if we just put two big kids in back and two fast kids up front and had the big kids kick the ball to the fast kids we'd win every game. But that's not development".

I should qualify. there is obvious improvement in sop at men's college and mls level. some of the women's college matches I've gone to are very entertaining. When I first started going to college soccer matches about a decade ago I often went with a Chilean friend whose son played with my kid. We'd watch the ball popcorn back and forth from head to head in the midfield. I'd look at him and go "what's wrong". He'd say you should be thankful that you don't know. so i think yes much better now but still a lot of direct play. with the limited season and training limitations perhaps it is difficult to be too tactically complex and pull it off for W's.

 

[tjinaz]

I disagree with the 10 year estimate, I think Europe has already passed us. I think you are most likely using the wrong metric to assess where we are. Most folks look at our depth when comparing us to Europe and I think that is 100% wrong. I think the better metric is: how many of our State Associations would have been competitive in the Euro’s? Afterall, a State here is about the same size as a country in Europe in size and population.

IDK - We have a local PSG affiliate here in Phoenix and they sent 07 and 08 girls teams to a tournament in Paris (state league not DPL, ECRL, ECNL or GA) and they got 2nd and 3rd in their divisions. They compared pretty well against their french equivalents.

 

[MacDre]

IDK - We have a local PSG affiliate here in Phoenix and they sent 07 and 08 girls teams to a tournament in Paris (state league not DPL, ECRL, ECNL or GA) and they got 2nd and 3rd in their divisions. They compared pretty well against their french equivalents.

Huh, wut? You are misconstruing what I am trying to say. My point is simple: Many states in the USA are similar in size and population to countries in Europe. For example, Belgium has a population of approximately of 11.5 million compared to Illinois that has a population of approximately 12.5 million. California has a population of approximately 39 million compared to Spain that has a population of 48 million. Arizona has a population of approximately 7.2 million compared to Finland (5.5 million) and Sweden’s 10.5 population etc. etc…and the list goes on.

So, please explain why each and every State Association isn’t capable of competing against countries in Europe that have similar populations as their State?

 

[jojon]

Huh, wut? You are misconstruing what I am trying to say. My point is simple: Many states in the USA are similar in size and population to countries in Europe. For example, Belgium has a population of approximately of 11.5 million compared to Illinois that has a population of approximately 12.5 million. California has a population of approximately 39 million compared to Spain that has a population of 48 million. Arizona has a population of approximately 7.2 million compared to Finland (5.5 million) and Sweden’s 10.5 population etc. etc…and the list goes on.

So, please explain why each and every State Association isn’t capable of competing against countries in Europe that have similar populations as their State?

I just posted below in the other threads...maybe more relevant here:
Does the U20 women team recent performances finally show that we have inferior youth soccer development?
The boys can hide behind the fact that we have our best athletes "stolen" by football, basketball, baseball and maybe even track and field.
Girls soccer definitely has the biggest selection pool in the world plus consistent training and regular matches since a very young age.
In Brazil, Japan, Netherland, England, girl's soccer is still not popular and yet they are at the same level with us (with less total population and definitely less money spent).
I don't know if it is coaching, pay to play scheme leaving out too many talented players or college experience disrupting the development.
Whatever it is, other nations are catching up thus proves their system is better. No wonder our boys cannot catch up with the world.

 

[MacDre]

Does the U20 women team recent performances finally show that we have inferior youth soccer development?

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but this isn’t the first time we got molly wopped at the U20 level. My understanding, is that we’ve been “getting the brakes” beat off of us for quite sometime (aprox the last 2-3 WC’s) at the U17 and U20 level.