When does winning matter?

SoccerGuru

SILVER ELITE
I read a post with someone attacking another parent for wanting to win. I do agree that U12 anf below the focus shouldn't be all about winning. Development in this sport is very important but at a certain point the kiddos need to learn that results matter. If you don't get results you can don't keep your job, if you don't do well on enough tests, you don't get the grades that get you into your dream school. I know, there are other factors but stay with me here. At what age does winning matter? I have spoken to a few parents that say "I don't care about results" but then see them throwing hats and screaming on the sideline at their kid and saying negative things about other parents children. My thought was that if you teach them that winning matters too late, when it does matter, like college showcases, they won't have that will to win or a few of the other qualities colleges look for. Also, college will be tough for them as they may not understand that they can no longer make mistakes over and over because a coach's job is on the line and they will play the best players. I may be looking at this wrong so if someone can give me a different way to look, I am open to it. I just always wondered when does winning matter?
 
I read a post with someone attacking another parent for wanting to win. I do agree that U12 anf below the focus shouldn't be all about winning. Development in this sport is very important but at a certain point the kiddos need to learn that results matter. If you don't get results you can don't keep your job, if you don't do well on enough tests, you don't get the grades that get you into your dream school. I know, there are other factors but stay with me here. At what age does winning matter? I have spoken to a few parents that say "I don't care about results" but then see them throwing hats and screaming on the sideline at their kid and saying negative things about other parents children. My thought was that if you teach them that winning matters too late, when it does matter, like college showcases, they won't have that will to win or a few of the other qualities colleges look for. Also, college will be tough for them as they may not understand that they can no longer make mistakes over and over because a coach's job is on the line and they will play the best players. I may be looking at this wrong so if someone can give me a different way to look, I am open to it. I just always wondered when does winning matter?
We are Americans, winning is what we do. Winning is the reasons that there are so many clubs and they can charge such ridiculous rates. Every parent wants their kids to win no mater what they say about bot caring about results. You find a club that is a perennial loser and you'll find a dying club. Pro/College players don't come from losing teams. (They may start there) Losing teams don't play in important showcase or attract college coaches. Win
 
I read a post with someone attacking another parent for wanting to win. I do agree that U12 anf below the focus shouldn't be all about winning. Development in this sport is very important but at a certain point the kiddos need to learn that results matter. If you don't get results you can don't keep your job, if you don't do well on enough tests, you don't get the grades that get you into your dream school. I know, there are other factors but stay with me here. At what age does winning matter? I have spoken to a few parents that say "I don't care about results" but then see them throwing hats and screaming on the sideline at their kid and saying negative things about other parents children. My thought was that if you teach them that winning matters too late, when it does matter, like college showcases, they won't have that will to win or a few of the other qualities colleges look for. Also, college will be tough for them as they may not understand that they can no longer make mistakes over and over because a coach's job is on the line and they will play the best players. I may be looking at this wrong so if someone can give me a different way to look, I am open to it. I just always wondered when does winning matter?
it should always matter, it matters more as they grow and develop. It's the result of the player's understanding the game, working together as a team under the guidance of their coach. This also transcends to life, things aren't meant to be easy, you work hard, sometimes with a team, strive to do the best you can in whatever you do, the sooner they learn that winning is a lot more fun than losing, they learn not to give up, keep battling and do the best they can...that's my 2 cents for the day
 
That was my NUMBER ONE complaint with the GDA's first year. No playoffs for 14 year olds!!!! That was stupid and a big red flag for this dad. I was so depressed that year. Winning is America everyone. The first thing we fought for and won is our freedom. We should all be free and that is what life is all about. Winning comes in many shapes and forms as well. For some, winning a spot on the team is awesome. Some want to win a starting spot. Some want to win it all and have that winning attitude. Under 10, keep it more about fun. 11 and up start introducing them to the winning formula. Not buying a spot, but winning a spot. Very hard to do. That's my 2 pennies worth :) BTW Guru, I like you more and more. You don;t have to like me but I just wanted to be honest with you.......
 
I read a post with someone attacking another parent for wanting to win. I do agree that U12 anf below the focus shouldn't be all about winning. Development in this sport is very important but at a certain point the kiddos need to learn that results matter. If you don't get results you can don't keep your job, if you don't do well on enough tests, you don't get the grades that get you into your dream school. I know, there are other factors but stay with me here. At what age does winning matter? I have spoken to a few parents that say "I don't care about results" but then see them throwing hats and screaming on the sideline at their kid and saying negative things about other parents children. My thought was that if you teach them that winning matters too late, when it does matter, like college showcases, they won't have that will to win or a few of the other qualities colleges look for. Also, college will be tough for them as they may not understand that they can no longer make mistakes over and over because a coach's job is on the line and they will play the best players. I may be looking at this wrong so if someone can give me a different way to look, I am open to it. I just always wondered when does winning matter?

Edwin Van Der Sar, ex Man Utd & Dutch GK, currently CEO of Ajax, a club renowned for developing talent, "At Ajax, we have a certain philosophy that is sometimes more important than winning - the development of players. " According to him, the only Ajax team that they care about winning is their top team.

It is important that players play to win, not that they win. Its important to perform at a college showcase, not to win it. If your kid is playing to their potential and being developed into a better player by the coach/club, but not winning ... so what. The best players aren't always found on the teams that win the most.

IMO, doing your best matters, always competing matters, always turning up matters, always being happy with your performance matters, continually developing through effort/attitude etc. matters ... winning is way down the list. Winning as the priority means development (of players) is secondary. I pay coaches/clubs to develop my player - I don't pay to be on a winning team (not to say that's not desirable obv.).
 
Edwin Van Der Sar, ex Man Utd & Dutch GK, currently CEO of Ajax, a club renowned for developing talent, "At Ajax, we have a certain philosophy that is sometimes more important than winning - the development of players. " According to him, the only Ajax team that they care about winning is their top team.

It is important that players play to win, not that they win. Its important to perform at a college showcase, not to win it. If your kid is playing to their potential and being developed into a better player by the coach/club, but not winning ... so what. The best players aren't always found on the teams that win the most.

IMO, doing your best matters, always competing matters, always turning up matters, always being happy with your performance matters, continually developing through effort/attitude etc. matters ... winning is way down the list. Winning as the priority means development (of players) is secondary. I pay coaches/clubs to develop my player - I don't pay to be on a winning team (not to say that's not desirable obv.).
The Dutch aren't winners like the Americans. Maybe 300 years ago but certainly not today. At the Ajax level you are dealing with nothing but winners, you are polishing a diamond not polishing a turd (U.S. pro soccer player). European soccer is a different game altogether. We are 50 years away from being what they have in Europe now. Europeans are not winners and really don't care about winning (generally), so they can sell development.

From a business perspective, marketing a losing club as development is not going to attract much business, and lets not kid ourselves, youth soccer in America is all about business. Winning sells and losing doesn't.

All those qualities that you list in the last paragraph are all highly desirable and honorable, but they are qualities of winners not loser. Show me a kid exhibiting those qualities and I'll show you a winner (both life and soccer). The last sentence is self delusional, what losing club are you paying to develop your kid. Americans win , sometimes they loss but in the end we win.
 
There is a difference between what the kid does, and what the team does.

The kid is going to try to win this game, right now.

The team may not. You might play a key player in a new position, give extra minutes to a bench player, or build from the back even with younger players.

All of these are things that hurt your chances of winning this game, but might help you win down the line.
 
Maybe 100 years? MLS is the 5th-richest pro league in N North America. The bright spot in this chart is average attendance, but the NBA and NHL play mostly indoors, where attendance is limited by the facility.


LeagueSportYear
founded
TeamsLast
expansion
Last
contraction
Revenue
US$ (bn)
Average
attendance (2017)
National Football LeagueAmerican football19203220021952$13.067,396
Major League BaseballBaseball1903[o 1]3019981899$9.530,042
National Basketball AssociationBasketball19463020041954$5.217,884
National Hockey LeagueIce hockey1917312017[o 2]1978$3.717,422
Major League SoccerSoccer1996262020[o 3]2014[o 4]$0.922,112
Canadian Football LeagueCanadian football1958[o 5]920142006$0.224,644
 
Every player and team should strive to win, and learn to lose gracefully. For the overwhelming proportion of youth players (from 4v4 through college) their last game is a loss.
 
Before every game we read or watch this. My son is an American dam it.



Be seated.

Men, all this stuff you hear about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of bullshit. Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, the big-league ball players and the toughest boxers. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. That's why Americans have never lost and will never lose a war. The very thought of losing is hateful to Americans. Battle is the most significant competition in which a man can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base.

You are not all going to die. Only two percent of you right here today would be killed in a major battle. Every man is scared in his first action. If he says he's not, he's a goddamn liar. But the real hero is the man who fights even though he's scared. Some men will get over their fright in a minute under fire, some take an hour, and for some it takes days. But the real man never lets his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood.

All through your army career you men have bitched about what you call 'this chicken-shit drilling.' That is all for a purpose—to ensure instant obedience to orders and to create constant alertness. This must be bred into every soldier. I don't give a fuck for a man who is not always on his toes. But the drilling has made veterans of all you men. You are ready! A man has to be alert all the time if he expects to keep on breathing. If not, some German son-of-a-bitch will sneak up behind him and beat him to death with a sock full of shit. There are four hundred neatly marked graves in Sicily, all because one man went to sleep on the job—but they are German graves, because we caught the bastard asleep before his officer did.

An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, and fights as a team. This individual hero stuff is bullshit. The bilious bastards who write that stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real battle than they do about fucking. And we have the best team—we have the finest food and equipment, the best spirit and the best men in the world. Why, by God, I actually pity these poor bastards we're going up against.

All the real heroes are not storybook combat fighters. Every single man in the army plays a vital role. So don't ever let up. Don't ever think that your job is unimportant. What if every truck driver decided that he didn't like the whine of the shells and turned yellow and jumped headlong into a ditch? That cowardly bastard could say to himself, 'Hell, they won't miss me, just one man in thousands.' What if every man said that? Where in the hell would we be then? No, thank God, Americans don't say that. Every man does his job. Every man is important. The ordnance men are needed to supply the guns, the quartermaster is needed to bring up the food and clothes for us because where we are going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last damn man in the mess hall, even the one who boils the water to keep us from getting the GI shits, has a job to do.

Each man must think not only of himself, but think of his buddy fighting alongside him. We don't want yellow cowards in the army. They should be killed off like flies. If not, they will go back home after the war, goddamn cowards, and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the goddamn cowards and we'll have a nation of brave men.

One of the bravest men I saw in the African campaign was on a telegraph pole in the midst of furious fire while we were moving toward Tunis. I stopped and asked him what the hell he was doing up there. He answered, 'Fixing the wire, sir.' 'Isn't it a little unhealthy up there right now?' I asked. 'Yes sir, but this goddamn wire has got to be fixed.' I asked, 'Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?' And he answered, 'No sir, but you sure as hell do.' Now, there was a real soldier. A real man. A man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how great the odds, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty appeared at the time.

And you should have seen the trucks on the road to Gabès. Those drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they crawled along those son-of-a-bitch roads, never stopping, never deviating from their course with shells bursting all around them. Many of the men drove over 40 consecutive hours. We got through on good old American guts. These were not combat men. But they were soldiers with a job to do. They were part of a team. Without them the fight would have been lost.

Sure, we all want to go home. We want to get this war over with. But you can't win a war lying down. The quickest way to get it over with is to get the bastards who started it. We want to get the hell over there and clean the goddamn thing up, and then get at those purple-pissing Japs. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. So keep moving. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper-hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler.

When a man is lying in a shell hole, if he just stays there all day, a Boche will get him eventually. The hell with that. My men don't dig foxholes. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by fighting and showing the Germans that we've got more guts than they have or ever will have. We're not just going to shoot the bastards, we're going to rip out their living goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun cocksuckers by the bushel-fucking-basket.

Some of you men are wondering whether or not you'll chicken out under fire. Don't worry about it. I can assure you that you'll all do your duty. War is a bloody business, a killing business. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them, spill their blood or they will spill yours. Shoot them in the guts. Rip open their belly. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt from your face and you realize that it's not dirt, it's the blood and gut of what was once your best friend, you'll know what to do.

I don't want any messages saying 'I'm holding my position.' We're not holding a goddamned thing. We're advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding anything except the enemy's balls. We're going to hold him by his balls and we're going to kick him in the ass; twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all the time. Our plan of operation is to advance and keep on advancing. We're going to go through the enemy like shit through a tinhorn.

There will be some complaints that we're pushing our people too hard. I don't give a damn about such complaints. I believe that an ounce of sweat will save a gallon of blood. The harder we push, the more Germans we kill. The more Germans we kill, the fewer of our men will be killed. Pushing harder means fewer casualties. I want you all to remember that. My men don't surrender. I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he is hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight. That's not just bullshit either. I want men like the lieutenant in Libya who, with a Luger against his chest, swept aside the gun with his hand, jerked his helmet off with the other and busted the hell out of the Boche with the helmet. Then he picked up the gun and he killed another German. All this time the man had a bullet through his lung. That's a man for you!

Don't forget, you don't know I'm here at all. No word of that fact is to be mentioned in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell they did with me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this army. I'm not even supposed to be in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the goddamned Germans. Some day, I want them to rise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl 'Ach! It's the goddamned Third Army and that son-of-a-bitch Patton again!'

Then there's one thing you men will be able to say when this war is over and you get back home. Thirty years from now when you're sitting by your fireside with your grandson on your knee and he asks, 'What did you do in the great World War Two?' You won't have to cough and say, 'Well, your granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana.' No sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say 'Son, your granddaddy rode with the great Third Army and a son-of-a-goddamned-bitch named George Patton!'


All right, you sons of bitches. You know how I feel. I'll be proud to lead you wonderful guys in battle anytime, anywhere. That's all.[23]
 
Before every game we read or watch this. My son is an American dam it.



Be seated.

Men, all this stuff you hear about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of bullshit. Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, the big-league ball players and the toughest boxers. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. That's why Americans have never lost and will never lose a war. The very thought of losing is hateful to Americans. Battle is the most significant competition in which a man can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base.

You are not all going to die. Only two percent of you right here today would be killed in a major battle. Every man is scared in his first action. If he says he's not, he's a goddamn liar. But the real hero is the man who fights even though he's scared. Some men will get over their fright in a minute under fire, some take an hour, and for some it takes days. But the real man never lets his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood.

All through your army career you men have bitched about what you call 'this chicken-shit drilling.' That is all for a purpose—to ensure instant obedience to orders and to create constant alertness. This must be bred into every soldier. I don't give a fuck for a man who is not always on his toes. But the drilling has made veterans of all you men. You are ready! A man has to be alert all the time if he expects to keep on breathing. If not, some German son-of-a-bitch will sneak up behind him and beat him to death with a sock full of shit. There are four hundred neatly marked graves in Sicily, all because one man went to sleep on the job—but they are German graves, because we caught the bastard asleep before his officer did.

An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, and fights as a team. This individual hero stuff is bullshit. The bilious bastards who write that stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real battle than they do about fucking. And we have the best team—we have the finest food and equipment, the best spirit and the best men in the world. Why, by God, I actually pity these poor bastards we're going up against.

All the real heroes are not storybook combat fighters. Every single man in the army plays a vital role. So don't ever let up. Don't ever think that your job is unimportant. What if every truck driver decided that he didn't like the whine of the shells and turned yellow and jumped headlong into a ditch? That cowardly bastard could say to himself, 'Hell, they won't miss me, just one man in thousands.' What if every man said that? Where in the hell would we be then? No, thank God, Americans don't say that. Every man does his job. Every man is important. The ordnance men are needed to supply the guns, the quartermaster is needed to bring up the food and clothes for us because where we are going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last damn man in the mess hall, even the one who boils the water to keep us from getting the GI shits, has a job to do.

Each man must think not only of himself, but think of his buddy fighting alongside him. We don't want yellow cowards in the army. They should be killed off like flies. If not, they will go back home after the war, goddamn cowards, and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the goddamn cowards and we'll have a nation of brave men.

One of the bravest men I saw in the African campaign was on a telegraph pole in the midst of furious fire while we were moving toward Tunis. I stopped and asked him what the hell he was doing up there. He answered, 'Fixing the wire, sir.' 'Isn't it a little unhealthy up there right now?' I asked. 'Yes sir, but this goddamn wire has got to be fixed.' I asked, 'Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?' And he answered, 'No sir, but you sure as hell do.' Now, there was a real soldier. A real man. A man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how great the odds, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty appeared at the time.

And you should have seen the trucks on the road to Gabès. Those drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they crawled along those son-of-a-bitch roads, never stopping, never deviating from their course with shells bursting all around them. Many of the men drove over 40 consecutive hours. We got through on good old American guts. These were not combat men. But they were soldiers with a job to do. They were part of a team. Without them the fight would have been lost.

Sure, we all want to go home. We want to get this war over with. But you can't win a war lying down. The quickest way to get it over with is to get the bastards who started it. We want to get the hell over there and clean the goddamn thing up, and then get at those purple-pissing Japs. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. So keep moving. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper-hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler.

When a man is lying in a shell hole, if he just stays there all day, a Boche will get him eventually. The hell with that. My men don't dig foxholes. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by fighting and showing the Germans that we've got more guts than they have or ever will have. We're not just going to shoot the bastards, we're going to rip out their living goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun cocksuckers by the bushel-fucking-basket.

Some of you men are wondering whether or not you'll chicken out under fire. Don't worry about it. I can assure you that you'll all do your duty. War is a bloody business, a killing business. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them, spill their blood or they will spill yours. Shoot them in the guts. Rip open their belly. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt from your face and you realize that it's not dirt, it's the blood and gut of what was once your best friend, you'll know what to do.

I don't want any messages saying 'I'm holding my position.' We're not holding a goddamned thing. We're advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding anything except the enemy's balls. We're going to hold him by his balls and we're going to kick him in the ass; twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all the time. Our plan of operation is to advance and keep on advancing. We're going to go through the enemy like shit through a tinhorn.

There will be some complaints that we're pushing our people too hard. I don't give a damn about such complaints. I believe that an ounce of sweat will save a gallon of blood. The harder we push, the more Germans we kill. The more Germans we kill, the fewer of our men will be killed. Pushing harder means fewer casualties. I want you all to remember that. My men don't surrender. I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he is hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight. That's not just bullshit either. I want men like the lieutenant in Libya who, with a Luger against his chest, swept aside the gun with his hand, jerked his helmet off with the other and busted the hell out of the Boche with the helmet. Then he picked up the gun and he killed another German. All this time the man had a bullet through his lung. That's a man for you!

Don't forget, you don't know I'm here at all. No word of that fact is to be mentioned in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell they did with me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this army. I'm not even supposed to be in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the goddamned Germans. Some day, I want them to rise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl 'Ach! It's the goddamned Third Army and that son-of-a-bitch Patton again!'

Then there's one thing you men will be able to say when this war is over and you get back home. Thirty years from now when you're sitting by your fireside with your grandson on your knee and he asks, 'What did you do in the great World War Two?' You won't have to cough and say, 'Well, your granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana.' No sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say 'Son, your granddaddy rode with the great Third Army and a son-of-a-goddamned-bitch named George Patton!'


All right, you sons of bitches. You know how I feel. I'll be proud to lead you wonderful guys in battle anytime, anywhere. That's all.[23]

I can’t stand the Patton and Montgomery hagiography. They were nothing without Turing and Blechley Park. (“Pushing harder“ is a lot easier if you can push into the places you know are weak.)
 
That is some jingoistic sh** that reflects a world view that is so small minded and out of touch with today’s reality. His concept of winning a ground campaign across Germany in 1944 has nothing to do with winning in youth soccer.
 
In some cases, in youth soccer, the team needs to win some in order to play in higher leagues or divisions. This is where those "grey" areas kick in. Do I lock my players into the same positions, do I play kids more than others?

And HS Varisty Games...should be all about winning.
 
Playing against the right level of competition is also an important factor. Winning by sandbagging is weak sauce. I’d rather play a little out of depth and have a worse record than playing a bunch of weaker teams and wing every game by 5 goals.
Agreed, sandbagging is not winning!
 
I read a post with someone attacking another parent for wanting to win. I do agree that U12 anf below the focus shouldn't be all about winning. Development in this sport is very important but at a certain point the kiddos need to learn that results matter. If you don't get results you can don't keep your job, if you don't do well on enough tests, you don't get the grades that get you into your dream school. I know, there are other factors but stay with me here. At what age does winning matter? I have spoken to a few parents that say "I don't care about results" but then see them throwing hats and screaming on the sideline at their kid and saying negative things about other parents children. My thought was that if you teach them that winning matters too late, when it does matter, like college showcases, they won't have that will to win or a few of the other qualities colleges look for. Also, college will be tough for them as they may not understand that they can no longer make mistakes over and over because a coach's job is on the line and they will play the best players. I may be looking at this wrong so if someone can give me a different way to look, I am open to it. I just always wondered when does winning matter?
Like everything in life there is a balancing act. Plus, if your not first you are last and second place is first place for losers.
 
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