New High School Soccer Schedule - Impact on Thanksgiving Tourneys?

SocalPapa

SILVER ELITE
I'm hearing some high schools are moving up their schedules so pre-season games will begin before Thanksgiving. Are all CIF-SS schools doing this? Does this mean So Cal club teams with HS players won't be able to play in the Thanksgiving tournaments?
 
I'm hearing some high schools are moving up their schedules so pre-season games will begin before Thanksgiving. Are all CIF-SS schools doing this? Does this mean So Cal club teams with HS players won't be able to play in the Thanksgiving tournaments?
My DD's school did this last year, however they did let players play their thanksgiving tournament with no issue with CIF.
 
The answer is relatively simple. Kids that are playing Thanksgiving tournaments just sit out any preseason game prior to then. Not a big deal.
 
I'm hearing some high schools are moving up their schedules so pre-season games will begin before Thanksgiving. Are all CIF-SS schools doing this? Does this mean So Cal club teams with HS players won't be able to play in the Thanksgiving tournaments?

It hard to answer this yet, since it will be a first time that HS will start on November 12th
 
My DD's school did this last year, however they did let players play their thanksgiving tournament with no issue with CIF.
@coachsamy you are in San Diego correct? CIF has traditionally been the worst working with kids, just ask @outside.

So are you saying that your dd was allowed to play in high school
Pre season games with a REF, then played with her club team in a tournament and then was allowed to play high school again? Or did she just sit out of the high school games until the tournament was over?
 
@coachsamy you are in San Diego correct? CIF has traditionally been the worst working with kids, just ask @outside.

So are you saying that your dd was allowed to play in high school
Pre season games with a REF, then played with her club team in a tournament and then was allowed to play high school again? Or did she just sit out of the high school games until the tournament was over?
Yes I'm in San Diego.

Players were allowed by the coach to go play in the preseason game that were schedule the week before Thanksgiving if I'm not mistaken and then go onto their Thanksgiving tournaments. However the coach was very explicit about comes Monday after Thanksgiving all club activities are done.

My DD doesn't play in Thanksgiving tournaments (She only played once and only so her grandma can see her play), so I don't have details on the other players. The players I know played that weekend didn't sit out any longer than they normally do during that timeframe.

As you mentioned I can provide my experience but I do feel I'm giving horrible advice as each school is different and the coaches vary from school to school and as we know what works here doesn't works there even if the rules are the same.
 
Yes I'm in San Diego.

Players were allowed by the coach to go play in the preseason game that were schedule the week before Thanksgiving if I'm not mistaken and then go onto their Thanksgiving tournaments. However the coach was very explicit about comes Monday after Thanksgiving all club activities are done.

My DD doesn't play in Thanksgiving tournaments (She only played once and only so her grandma can see her play), so I don't have details on the other players. The players I know played that weekend didn't sit out any longer than they normally do during that timeframe.

As you mentioned I can provide my experience but I do feel I'm giving horrible advice as each school is different and the coaches vary from school to school and as we know what works here doesn't works there even if the rules are the same.
Thank you for the info but this is not a school thing. It is a CIF thing and each section interprets the rules differently with San Diego being the most restrictive and often interferring with kids going to ID camps. The rule in San Diego has always been interpreted that once a player plays with the high school
game, even in a scrimmage, they can no longer play with their club team IF the game had a ref.
 
I'm hearing some high schools are moving up their schedules so pre-season games will begin before Thanksgiving. Are all CIF-SS schools doing this? Does this mean So Cal club teams with HS players won't be able to play in the Thanksgiving tournaments?

Yes, all CIF-SS schools are doing this because the CIF-SS moved up the date of first competition (pre-season) from Nov. 20 to Nov. 12 AND the date of first league games from Jan. 1 to December 22. Next question, why did the CIF-SS do this? Because the CIF-SS doesn't care that much about club soccer.

This impacts a number of programs (club schedules, club playoffs, National League, CRL, etc.)

As others have said, yes, players on club and HS teams cannot do both. They cannot play in preseason HS games while competing in club without violating the CIF rules and risking disqualification. CRL, for example has already scheduled around this putting the olders on break starting November 18 through March 23.
 
Yes, all CIF-SS schools are doing this because the CIF-SS moved up the date of first competition (pre-season) from Nov. 20 to Nov. 12 AND the date of first league games from Jan. 1 to December 22. Next question, why did the CIF-SS do this? Because the CIF-SS doesn't care that much about club soccer.

Funny, but many of those CIF board members who come up with this are club coaches.
My understanding is this was done to align HS sports with Academic year, which doesn't make any sense, since many schools start/end at different dates.
 
Funny, but many of those CIF board members who come up with this are club coaches.
My understanding is this was done to align HS sports with Academic year, which doesn't make any sense, since many schools start/end at different dates.

The official line is that many schools have switched the beginning of school from early September (after Labor day) to early/mid August. As such, schools are now ending their academic year earlier, which impacted the "Spring" sports playoffs (playoffs conflicting with graduations, etc.). Because schools use their own facilities (gyms and fields), the schools with early August starts were running into trouble/conflicts.

I don't know how many are club coaches, as the voting representatives are the Athletic Directors, Superintendents and Principals for their respective schools.
 
I don’t see many high school players missing their club games, tournaments, or showcases (where most recruiting happens) to play in preseason high school games that don’t mean a whole lot. All Cif did with this is make the beginning of the hs season less relevant.
 
I don’t see many high school players missing their club games, tournaments, or showcases (where most recruiting happens) to play in preseason high school games that don’t mean a whole lot. All Cif did with this is make the beginning of the hs season less relevant.
I agree with this statement.

Its about time CIF relax their rules anyway (not gonna happen... I know) so when coaches see more than half of their team gone, probably will go back to the traditional schedule next year. If not, most simply won't schedule games before the 1st weekend of December.
 
Yes I'm in San Diego.

Players were allowed by the coach to go play in the preseason game that were schedule the week before Thanksgiving if I'm not mistaken and then go onto their Thanksgiving tournaments. However the coach was very explicit about comes Monday after Thanksgiving all club activities are done.

My DD doesn't play in Thanksgiving tournaments (She only played once and only so her grandma can see her play), so I don't have details on the other players. The players I know played that weekend didn't sit out any longer than they normally do during that timeframe.

As you mentioned I can provide my experience but I do feel I'm giving horrible advice as each school is different and the coaches vary from school to school and as we know what works here doesn't works there even if the rules are the same.

That's a CIF violation. You can train and play club at the same time, but the second you step on the field during a high school game or scrimmage that has a referee you are locked into high school. Playing a club game after that makes the player ineligible.



As for the timing of the season, it is going to be difficult with starting Nov 6 this year and having enough players to play games the week of Thanksgiving or after, so most schools I have talked to are simply not going to. The tricky part is that league play begins in the first week of January for most leagues with cross league games before that, so it limits opportunities for tournaments and non league games greatly. It will be interesting to see how it all works out.

I am kind of interested to see how football deals with having games before school starts. I think cutting into their monetary bottom line will affect a lot of schools in addition to potentially draining the whole school spirit thing.
 
That's a CIF violation. You can train and play club at the same time, but the second you step on the field during a high school game or scrimmage that has a referee you are locked into high school. Playing a club game after that makes the player ineligible.
Parents/players, please don't rely on the above claims. Go read the primary source documents , i.e. the CIF Southern Section Blue Book or the CIF San Diego Section Green Book for the rules applicable in your section.
  • What a player can do between club and high school depends on the CIF Section in which their school has membership. In the Southern Section a player can play with their HS team and train with their club but not play any club matches. In the San Diego Section they can't even train with their club.
  • In both sections a players season of sport begins with the first interscholastic "contest" in which they participate. By rule, a scrimmage is not a "contest." In previous years, with HS schedules that began Thanksgiving week, early in the week a high school player could play in the one scrimmage allowed their HS team, then play in a Thanksgiving tournament or showcase with their club, and come back the following Monday and begin their HS season of sport by playing for their HS team. That scenario doesn't work with the earlier start this year.
  • As a point of information, if a player does participate in a club contest after their high school season of sport begins they are ineligible on a 2-for-1 basis, i.e. ineligible for two HS games for every one club game.
 
I am kind of interested to see how football deals with having games before school starts. I think cutting into their monetary bottom line will affect a lot of schools in addition to potentially draining the whole school spirit thing.
I don't think there will be much of an impact. Schools have been playing high school football games before school begins for years. Many schools schedule out of state/out of area schools involving significant travel for the week or two before school starts. One benefit is that players don't miss classes due to the travel involved.
 
Parents/players, please don't rely on the above claims. Go read the primary source documents , i.e. the CIF Southern Section Blue Book or the CIF San Diego Section Green Book for the rules applicable in your section.
  • What a player can do between club and high school depends on the CIF Section in which their school has membership. In the Southern Section a player can play with their HS team and train with their club but not play any club matches. In the San Diego Section they can't even train with their club.
  • In both sections a players season of sport begins with the first interscholastic "contest" in which they participate. By rule, a scrimmage is not a "contest." In previous years, with HS schedules that began Thanksgiving week, early in the week a high school player could play in the one scrimmage allowed their HS team, then play in a Thanksgiving tournament or showcase with their club, and come back the following Monday and begin their HS season of sport by playing for their HS team. That scenario doesn't work with the earlier start this year.
  • As a point of information, if a player does participate in a club contest after their high school season of sport begins they are ineligible on a 2-for-1 basis, i.e. ineligible for two HS games for every one club game.

He was correct for SD Section, "That's a CIF violation. You can train and play club at the same time, but the second you step on the field during a high school game or scrimmage that has a referee you are locked into high school. Playing a club game after that makes the player ineligible." The key is the NFHS referee. It doesn't matter if it is called a game or a scrimmage, if a NFHS referee is involved than it is considered a game no matter how many times the coach or AD call it a scrimmage. If a player plays it what a coach calls a scrimmage and there is a NFHS referee officiating the game then it is not a scrimmage but an official game. Now, the player can go play in a club game and hope they don't get found out by CIF. If they do get found out by CIF then there can be sanctions against the team and/or player. If the two schools have just some guy (assistant coach or teacher) out there officiating the game wearing a referee shirt that is not a NFHS referee then it can still be considered a scrimmage.

Most of the time when a player plays club games after committing to HS the person that reports it is some parent from another HS team.
 
I don’t see many high school players missing their club games, tournaments, or showcases (where most recruiting happens) to play in preseason high school games that don’t mean a whole lot. All Cif did with this is make the beginning of the hs season less relevant.
This way of thinking is what making varsity sports irrelevant in High School. How does a pay per play game is more important than the experience of HS Athletics? The main reason Varsity sports play preseason is so the teams can bond together for the season and hopefully make it to the playoffs. I know a lot of people will disagree and rightly so, however varsity athletics goes a little beyond of just playing the game, its about enjoying the time in high school, playing with your classmates, taking pride of your school colors and preparing to do so in a college environment, which after all that's what most people are chasing is that coveted college scholarship.

Last night at my DD's varsity Lacrosse banquet I was blown away by her coach's speech(Event that it drag a little too long) by mentioning great qualities of each one of the 22 players on the team, thanking the seniors for their years of dedication and multisport participation representing the school. To me that was more valuable than any pay for play tournament. How does this relate to this thread? That high school sports are important in an athlete's life and as a parent it should be the priority for our kids. If the soccer club is mad because they lost a player($$$$) for 3-4 months timeframe sounds to me like they need to figure out what to do.
 
This way of thinking is what making varsity sports irrelevant in High School.
Maybe. Then again, the people that make the decisions governing HS sports seem to be doing their best to drive the top non male, or non-football and non-basketball athletes away from HS sports. Soccer specific problems include, tiny fields, two refs, limited school administrative support (when was the last time you went to a HS football game and the bathrooms were locked?) and the elephant in the room is CIF.
 
My solution to this problem is relatively simple, my kid moved teams. His HS Varsity coach is also his club coach, problem solved ... just play wherever the coach tells him.

For the record, there are really 3 types of game like events.

1. "inter-squad scrimmage" aka practice - scrimmage game between varsity and jv or jv and freshman, these don't count and you can have an unpaid guy in a referee's shirt managing the scrimmage.

2. "interscholastic scrimmage" - training session between two to three schools. Includes, a single Alumni game. Can have an unpaid official. Must be played before team's first interscholastic contest. Unpaid referee only. Does not count against the 20 contest rule.

3. "interscholastic contest" - non-league, tournament or league game. Maximum of 20 contests, not including playoffs.

With regard to Club overlap (BlueBook SS):
Rule 2509 - During Individual’s Season of Sport - A member of a high school soccer team may not, during his or her season of sport, compete for an outside team in the sport of soccer. A season of sport (see Bylaw 504) is defined as that period which begins with a student’s first interscholastic competition (nonleague, tournament, or league game) and ends with that student’s last interscholastic contest (tournament, non-league or CIF Southern Section playoff).

For our purposes in 2018 that is November 12 for the Southern Section (including SD). In other words, a Club/HS player can practice through November 11 with both teams and play a club event through November 11. If the player continues to play club they cannot "compete" for the HS.
 
Maybe. Then again, the people that make the decisions governing HS sports seem to be doing their best to drive the top non male, or non-football and non-basketball athletes away from HS sports. Soccer specific problems include, tiny fields, two refs, limited school administrative support (when was the last time you went to a HS football game and the bathrooms were locked?) and the elephant in the room is CIF.
I have not encounter none of those issues as you mention besides the 2 referees thing. Now one thing I'll say most of these 2 ref crews did by far a better job than a lot of 3 ref crews I encounter in club soccer. I will agree with you that girls soccer should be schedule to be played under the lights and bring more people. CIF could be the issue with their scheduling and funding, however the rest is a reflection of the parents.

Even better yet, look at the bios of college players and let me know how many of those players list any club accomplishments vs HS accomplishments.
 
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