Feedback on refs from league games

Just a Parent said:
If that was the extent of his problems I would have to say it was a very minor problem.
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Well
It wasn't
But what would I know I was there and you weren't
If you were, you likely would have a different opinion. I know you dislike referees criticizing other referees, but this individual could not do the job he is supposed to be doing well. It is a fact like it or not
 
Surfref said:
Trust me, that guy did not have any angle. He was 40 yards straight up field with at least 10 players between him and the call.
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I was saying in general, not specifically to this case. Having a good angle is generally more important than being close in most instances.
 
baldref said:
Well
It wasn't
But what would I know I was there and you weren't
If you were, you likely would have a different opinion. I know you dislike referees criticizing other referees, but this individual could not do the job he is supposed to be doing well. It is a fact like it or not
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I'm only commenting based on what you wrote, and the only problem you mentioned was physicality.
 
Just a Parent said:
The reason I'm a little frustrated by what I have read so far is that no one is saying that the referee crew did anything DURING the game to ameliorate what they saw as bad refereeing, only saying what they did after the fact.
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I did my best to help him, as I always do. His "stature" and fitness prevented him from being effective, and he did not allow us ARs to do much to help him.
Anyway, I'm done defending myself for your perceived poor performance on my part.
 
baldref said:
I did my best to help him, as I always do. His "stature" and fitness prevented him from being effective, and he did not allow us ARs to do much to help him.
Anyway, I'm done defending myself for your perceived poor performance on my part.
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I have no idea why you're being so defensive, but okay.
 
Just a Parent said:
The reason I'm a little frustrated by what I have read so far is that no one is saying that the referee crew did anything DURING the game to ameliorate what they saw as bad refereeing, only saying what they did after the fact.
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I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's. Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen." If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant. Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials." Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."

The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag. It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants" The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play. In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.). There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.

All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.
 
SocalSoccerMom said:
I do recall seeing something back then with Presidio. This was for SCDSL game. There have to be better requirements to be certified than taking some online courses and one day training sessions. If there is a shortage, why not send 2 refs that are more experienced than 2 ARs who barely understand the game and spend most of their time watching vs reffing.
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Because the 2 Referee system is not permitted under most league rules. The rules typically require the Home Club to provide a "Club Linesman" if one or both AR's are not present. Again, the AR's are not the Referee. A Referee in good position will "see" the same thing as the AR's 98.3% of the time.

I'll also point out that sometimes a younger ref is asked to AR an older game because of a shortage of available refs. My 13 year old son's first "club" experience as an AR (he had 3 years refereeing Rec) was an emergency assignment where the Center was short a referee and asked him to help on 45 minutes notice. He was asked to AR a U16 game. He trailed a little behind the 2nd to last defender and missed a few offside calls, but was far, far better than any of the "dads or moms" that would have been enlisted as the "Club Linesman" if he wasn't there.
 
MWN said:
I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's. Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen." If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant. Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials." Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."

The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag. It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants" The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play. In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.). There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.

All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.
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I don't agree with this. The ref team is just that, a team. While it is true that the final decision is with the center referee, the ARs are never "irrelevant". Having good communication and understanding with your ARs and trusting them is extremely important and helpful to calling the match correctly.

There are some referees who subscribed to this, and really don't pay much attention to their ARS, except when they need "help", but those referees are not the best referees. In my opinion, making even simple and obvious calls without looking to and communicating with your AR, is wasting a great resource and somewhat disrespectful of that AR and the game in general.
 
MWN said:
I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's. Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen." If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant. Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials." Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."

The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag. It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants" The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play. In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.). There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.

All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.
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The Referee is given such absolute power in soccer largely because "the flow of the game," unique to soccer, is given paramount importance. The match is one game, unlike American sports which are a series of mini games. That's why there's no timeout, no water breaks (the last WC was the first time ever to have water breaks due to extreme heat). Injured players are to be treated quickly or be removed from the field. Substitution has always been limited to the minimal. By comparison, in baseball, a new pitcher has all the time in the world to warm up. In basketball, the game is constantly interrupted by timeouts. In football, an injured player is attended to for as long as it takes. I don't think "the flow of the game" tradition or importance is fully appreciated in the US. That's why a forum regular and a ref mistakes "All referee's decisions are final" as an authorizing clause. It's not. It's to be understood in the context of "the flow of the game." The referee cannot reverse himself once the game has restarted. He or she is not to be persuaded even by ARs to reverse his decisions for the sake of the flow of the game. Instant replay is resisted by MLB but it's unthinkable in soccer.

The referee's power, understood in this context, doesn't mean that ARs don't have an important role to play. They're crucial in offside and out of bounds calls.
 
MWN said:
I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's. Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen." If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant. Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials." Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."

The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag. It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants" The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play. In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.). There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.

All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.
Click to expand...
I think my frustration stems from the
MWN said:
I think your frustration stems from the fact that you, like most parents (and coaches for that matter), don't fully understand the role and limitations of the AR's. Law 5 authorizes the Referee to "act on the advice of other match officials regarding incidents that the referee has not seen." If the Referee saw it, the AR's advice is irrelevant. Under the Law, AR's are "other match officials." Law 6 states "They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee."

The AR's are not the Referee, they are simply there to provide an additional perspective and give advice through signals with their flag. It's not as much a "referee crew" as it is a "referee and his/her helpers/assistants" The Referee is the "General" and the AR's are "Privates," there is no other "officer" on the field of play. In fact, the AR's are not to enter the field of play, unless under some very specific circumstances (assist with 10 yard distance if asked by Ref, out of control players/fighting, etc.). There really is nothing an AR can do during the game pursuant to the Laws of the Game when a Referee makes a bad call or isn't able to be in the right position.

All we can do is give advice/counsel regarding performance after the fact.
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Speaking as a referee assessor, coach and instructor, I think my frustration stems from the fact that this type of attitude still pervades despite the vast amount of time and effort we put into referee education and training. All 3 or 4 or 5 officials are responsible for the game and must work as a team. Things must be addressed in real time and not after the fact. The crew must remain connected at all times. The "General" and "Privates" thing you just posted is particularly galling. But for me, the shocking thing is to actually see this in writing.
 
baldref said:
I don't agree with this. The ref team is just that, a team. While it is true that the final decision is with the center referee, the ARs are never "irrelevant". Having good communication and understanding with your ARs and trusting them is extremely important and helpful to calling the match correctly.

There are some referees who subscribed to this, and really don't pay much attention to their ARS, except when they need "help", but those referees are not the best referees. In my opinion, making even simple and obvious calls without looking to and communicating with your AR, is wasting a great resource and somewhat disrespectful of that AR and the game in general.
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Not to mention bad refereeing.

Thank you. Thank you.
 
Just a Parent said:
I think my frustration stems from the
Speaking as a referee assessor, coach and instructor, I think my frustration stems from the fact that this type of attitude still pervades despite the vast amount of time and effort we put into referee education and training. All 3 or 4 or 5 officials are responsible for the game and must work as a team. Things must be addressed in real time and not after the fact. The crew must remain connected at all times. The "General" and "Privates" thing you just posted is particularly galling. But for me, the shocking thing is to actually see this in writing.
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Connected is a word I always use in my pregames when I have less experienced or youth referees working with me. Love that word in this context.
 
Just a Parent said:
I think my frustration stems from the
Speaking as a referee assessor, coach and instructor, I think my frustration stems from the fact that this type of attitude still pervades despite the vast amount of time and effort we put into referee education and training. All 3 or 4 or 5 officials are responsible for the game and must work as a team. Things must be addressed in real time and not after the fact. The crew must remain connected at all times. The "General" and "Privates" thing you just posted is particularly galling. But for me, the shocking thing is to actually see this in writing.
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There is no question they must work as a team and a good Center is going to sit down with the ARs, explain his/her expectations, and rely on the AR's perspective (i.e. take their advice). But, the AR's are powerless to stop the play and call the Referee over to them, they don't blow whistles and have no authority or say ... they only give advice. The AR's can and must signal what they see, but you know as well as I that this information is advisory. Its not a "call." Only the center Referee has the authority under the laws of the game to enforce the rules. The AR signals ball out of bound for the red team ... the Ref calls "blue team" ... the AR puts his flag down and signals for the "blue" despite knowing that the Ref is dead wrong. No debate.

What I wrote is accurate under the 2016/17 Laws of the Game.

Law 06: "Other match officials (two assistant referees, fourth official, two additional assistant referees and reserve assistant referee) may be appointed to matches. They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee. The match officials operate under the direction of the referee. In the event of undue interference or improper conduct, the referee will relieve them of their duties and make a report to the appropriate authorities."

Quite simply, the AR's do not have the power to overrule or remove a Center.

Finally, with the 2017 rewrite of the Laws, the IFAB made a point to refer to the ARs, fourth and others as "THE OTHER MATCH OFFICIALS" in an effort to clear the ambiguity that they are "referees" with any independence. Rather, they work under the direction of the Referee.
 
MWN said:
There is no question they must work as a team and a good Center is going to sit down with the ARs, explain his/her expectations, and rely on the AR's perspective (i.e. take their advice). But, the AR's are powerless to stop the play and call the Referee over to them, they don't blow whistles and have no authority or say ... they only give advice. The AR's can and must signal what they see, but you know as well as I that this information is advisory. Its not a "call." Only the center Referee has the authority under the laws of the game to enforce the rules. The AR signals ball out of bound for the red team ... the Ref calls "blue team" ... the AR puts his flag down and signals for the "blue" despite knowing that the Ref is dead wrong. No debate.

What I wrote is accurate under the 2016/17 Laws of the Game.

Law 06: "Other match officials (two assistant referees, fourth official, two additional assistant referees and reserve assistant referee) may be appointed to matches. They will assist the referee in controlling the match in accordance with the Laws of the Game but the final decision will always be taken by the referee. The match officials operate under the direction of the referee. In the event of undue interference or improper conduct, the referee will relieve them of their duties and make a report to the appropriate authorities."

Quite simply, the AR's do not have the power to overrule or remove a Center.

Finally, with the 2017 rewrite of the Laws, the IFAB made a point to refer to the ARs, fourth and others as "THE OTHER MATCH OFFICIALS" in an effort to clear the ambiguity that they are "referees" with any independence. Rather, they work under the direction of the Referee.
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The fact that you are referring to the referee as "center", in itself tells me something.

But back to the point. Referees and assistants must communicate by eye contact or other prearranged signal before every call. They must communicate before any critical call, of which there are many during the course of any match. If they are doing their job as they should, they would be communicating at every single stoppage. The referee need not be called at any time for this to happen. There should never arise an instance of conflicting direction at any time and when ARs see things that should be happening and they're not, they should let the referee know in real time, not after the fact. What I'm describing has been a basic staple of good refereeing for at least 25 years, (in this country anyway). That is why there is a guide to procedures. At certain levels of the game if you refereed as you describe here, that most likely will be the last and only game either of you will see at that level.
 
Just a Parent said:
The fact that you are referring to the referee as "center", in itself tells me something.

But back to the point. Referees and assistants must communicate by eye contact or other prearranged signal before every call. They must communicate before any critical call, of which there are many during the course of any match. If they are doing their job as they should, they would be communicating at every single stoppage. The referee need not be called at any time for this to happen. There should never arise an instance of conflicting direction at any time and when ARs see things that should be happening and they're not, they should let the referee know in real time, not after the fact. What I'm describing has been a basic staple of good refereeing for at least 25 years, (in this country anyway). That is why there is a guide to procedures. At certain levels of the game if you refereed as you describe here, that most likely will be the last and only game either of you will see at that level.
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As someone once said, "Word games..." aka using semantics to demean despite all understanding the intent and meaning:
"It's the touch line, not sideline."
"There is no penalty box, only a penalty area."==> "There is no goalie box, its the goal area."
"There's no such thing as a hand ball, its handling."
"You don't understand, because there is no offsides, its offside."
"Obviously you're confused, as there are no rules in soccer, only laws."

That being said, the point that was asserted is that ARs cannot "control," "overrule," "fix" or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee during the game. A point that every parent, referee, coach or player should agree with and understand.
 
coachrefparent said:
As someone once said, "Word games..." aka using semantics to demean despite all understanding the intent and meaning:
"It's the touch line, not sideline."
"There is no penalty box, only a penalty area."==> "There is no goalie box, its the goal area."
"There's no such thing as a hand ball, its handling."
"You don't understand, because there is no offsides, its offside."
"Obviously you're confused, as there are no rules in soccer, only laws."

That being said, the point that was asserted is that ARs cannot "control," "overrule," "fix" or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee during the game. A point that every parent, referee, coach or player should agree with and understand.
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The OP's question was why the "referee crew" did not do anything "during the game." The thread got sideways. Thank you for understanding the point.
 
coachrefparent said:
As someone once said, "Word games..." aka using semantics to demean despite all understanding the intent and meaning:
"It's the touch line, not sideline."
"There is no penalty box, only a penalty area."==> "There is no goalie box, its the goal area."
"There's no such thing as a hand ball, its handling."
"You don't understand, because there is no offsides, its offside."
"Obviously you're confused, as there are no rules in soccer, only laws."

That being said, the point that was asserted is that ARs cannot "control," "overrule," "fix" or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee during the game. A point that every parent, referee, coach or player should agree with and understand.
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The point you missed was that only certain referees refer to referees as "Center", not that the correct terminology is used. But I have a sneaky feeling you knew this but you were being dishonest.

Be that as it may, the AR can absolutely control, fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee during a game. Absolutely. But that wasn't even the point here. You painted a picture of the 1960s refereeing style where the referee was the boss and controlled everything, with 2 minions with limited authority and say who only became relevant when the boss needed information, hence your "General" and "Privates" characterization; and tried to say that is how refereeing is done today. We have moved a long way from that. But unfortunately there are still referees like you, well meaning but still living in the past. This attitude seems to be prevalent in certain areas more than others.
 
Just a Parent said:
The point you missed was that only certain referees refer to referees as "Center", not that the correct terminology is used. But I have a sneaky feeling you knew this but you were being dishonest.

Be that as it may, the AR can absolutely control, fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee during a game. Absolutely. But that wasn't even the point here. You painted a picture of the 1960s refereeing style where the referee was the boss and controlled everything, with 2 minions with limited authority and say who only became relevant when the boss needed information, hence your "General" and "Privates" characterization; and tried to say that is how refereeing is done today. We have moved a long way from that. But unfortunately there are still referees like you, well meaning but still living in the past. This attitude seems to be prevalent in certain areas more than others.
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I think you attributed my comment (the comment you took issue with) with those of "CoachRefParent." I'm here to "discuss" these points/issues in a civilized manner. You won't see me insult or name call ... or degrade. I ignore the use of a wrong term here or there because I understand that often the users replying may be doing this in their free time or after a drink or two or three at home on the sofa (at least I do).

My point, which you disagree with is that the AR is somewhat powerless to fix a bad referee during the game. Other than some advice during the half, which the Ref is free to ignore, an AR is limited to giving advice through the use of signals. So, in all seriousness, what can an AR do during the game to fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee within the Laws or accepted procedures?
 
MWN said:
I think you attributed my comment (the comment you took issue with) with those of "CoachRefParent." I'm here to "discuss" these points/issues in a civilized manner. You won't see me insult or name call ... or degrade. I ignore the use of a wrong term here or there because I understand that often the users replying may be doing this in their free time or after a drink or two or three at home on the sofa (at least I do).

My point, which you disagree with is that the AR is somewhat powerless to fix a bad referee during the game. Other than some advice during the half, which the Ref is free to ignore, an AR is limited to giving advice through the use of signals. So, in all seriousness, what can an AR do during the game to fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee within the Laws or accepted procedures?
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Why wait for half time? Why not in real time?
 
MWN said:
I think you attributed my comment (the comment you took issue with) with those of "CoachRefParent." I'm here to "discuss" these points/issues in a civilized manner. You won't see me insult or name call ... or degrade. I ignore the use of a wrong term here or there because I understand that often the users replying may be doing this in their free time or after a drink or two or three at home on the sofa (at least I do).

My point, which you disagree with is that the AR is somewhat powerless to fix a bad referee during the game. Other than some advice during the half, which the Ref is free to ignore, an AR is limited to giving advice through the use of signals. So, in all seriousness, what can an AR do during the game to fix or otherwise stop a bad referee from being a bad referee within the Laws or accepted procedures?
Click to expand...
Why wait for half time? Why not in real time?
 
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