Wow, it seemed like the Refs at Pegasus were mostly young boys and girls. Even some of the games past bracket play were teamed up with three very young yellow shirts.

It was very obvious calls were helped along by screaming coaches and parents influencing the center refs. Up until this point in their young lives, they're told to respect your elders. How in the heck do they deal with making an instant decsion with one to five curdling adults in their face and screaming with anger. Exactly, give the nearest screamer the call. When inexperienced refs don't even have the composure to immediately point in the correct direction of play after a call, lookout, the sharks start circling. It's no wonder most refs quit soon after starting this job.

Most of us parents and coaches start off a game with the intent of letting the kids play and allowing the refs to make the calls, right or wrong. But, sure enough, one idiot screams out and gets a call his/her way and we all dog pile.

Has this really become part of the game? :unkown

:cm: don't be so mean

Originally posted by GUESTscore@Jun 27 2005, 05:00 PM
Wow, it seemed like the Refs at Pegasus were mostly young boys and girls. Even some of the games past bracket play were teamed up with three very young yellow shirts.

It was very obvious calls were helped along by screaming coaches and parents influencing the center refs. Up until this point in their young lives, they're told to respect your elders. How in the heck do they deal with making an instant decsion with one to five curdling adults in their face and screaming with anger. Exactly, give the nearest screamer the call. When inexperienced refs don't even have the composure to immediately point in the correct direction of play after a call, lookout, the sharks start circling. It's no wonder most refs quit soon after starting this job.

Most of us parents and coaches start off a game with the intent of letting the kids play and allowing the refs to make the calls, right or wrong. But, sure enough, one idiot screams out and gets a call his/her way and we all dog pile.

Has this really become part of the game? :unkown
You hit the nail right on the head.

The problem is not the parents. It is the club and the coach. The coach sets the tone and is 100% responsible for his sideline. It usually starts with the coach getting after the refs...and it spreads like wildfire. It is very difficult for a young CR to shut down an adult coach, but it is very simple, "Coach, you either get control or we are done".

People complain every week about horrible referees, but we don't give them a chance to get better. They quit and we have to start all over again.

Clubs who tolerate this type of behavior from their coaches should be held accountable.

Went to a recent Ref class for a recert and the young refs were all over the place, so what would be the difference at a tournament?..it's hard to get people to start in the ref corps and then stay..average life is less than 3 years once they get out there.....I've coached, played and been a ref and I can say that the least favorite,but the most money was in being a ref....most though are not making what some of these DOC's make at the top clubs and they too are working year round....it's hard for me as a coach to lay off a ref, cause I'm a ref too .encourage the local clubs to support ref classes and encourage the local refs to ref.. yellow_card

Originally posted by GaSurfsupporter@Jul 21 2005, 11:25 AM
Went to a recent Ref class for a recert and the young refs were all over the place, so what would be the difference at a tournament?..it's hard to get people to start in the ref corps and then stay..average life is less than 3 years once they get out there.....I've coached, played and been a ref and I can say that the least favorite,but the most money was in being a ref....most though are not making what some of these DOC's make at the top clubs and they too are working year round....it's hard for me as a coach to lay off a ref, cause I'm a ref too .encourage the local clubs to support ref classes and encourage the local refs to ref.. yellow_card
So what exactly is your point? My points are these:
Young, inexperienced refs do not belong in playoffs of tournaments. Are there qualified, younger refs capable of being in the center during a competitive game? Yes, but not very many. Not even as linesman.
Okay, there aren't enough qualified refs around to fill all of the games...But how many good, knowledgeable, experienced refs have left the trade only because of the reckless abuse of coaches and parents. Multiply this number by 15 and that's probably how many inexperienced newcomers bail out for the very same reason.
I say eliminate the reckless abuse at every level and sure enough the ranks will fill with new and old, inexperienced up to the fully qualified... :D

IT IS PARENTS THAT DO NOT KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT SOCCER THAT MAKES US YOUNG REFS WANT TO QUIT. YOU WANT EVERY FOUL CALLED ON YOUR BABY AND IT DONT WORK THAT WAY!!!! I AM A YOUNG REF AND I WAS AT PEGASUS AND SOMETIMES I WANTED TO LAUGH AT SOME OF THESE PARENTS!!! I WORK VERY HARD AT WHAT I DO....AND I ENJOY WORKING AS A REF ON THE WEEKENDS. I ENJOY THE GAMES AND MOST OF THE TIME THE SIDELINES. MAYBE IF THE PARENTS WOULD PICK UP A SOCCER RULE BOOK THEY MIGHT NOT BE SO BAD. THE COACHES ARE NOT ANY BETTER!!!! THEY YELL AND SCREAM AND JUMP UP AND DOWN AND TRY TO INFLUENCE US TO MAKE A CALL GO THEIR WAY . SOME OF US ARE OUT THERE TO LEARN AND BECOME BETTER REFS. YES, I HAVE SEEN SOME BAD CALLS AND I PROBABLY HAVE MADE A FEW TOO BUT SETTLE DOWN WE ALL LEARN IN LIFE AND WILL MAKE MISTAKES. IF IT WAS NOT FOR US IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR GAMES YOU PROBABLY WOULD NOT EVEN BE PLAYING. TAKE A CHILL PILL AND JUST PLAY THE GAME.
:2cents: :2cents: :2cents: :2cents: :2cents:

:thanks

Originally posted by italiaforever@Jul 21 2005, 07:47 PM
IT IS PARENTS THAT DO NOT KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT SOCCER THAT MAKES US YOUNG REFS WANT TO QUIT. YOU WANT EVERY FOUL CALLED ON YOUR BABY AND IT DONT WORK THAT WAY!!!! I AM A YOUNG REF AND I WAS AT PEGASUS AND SOMETIMES I WANTED TO LAUGH AT SOME OF THESE PARENTS!!! I WORK VERY HARD AT WHAT I DO....AND I ENJOY WORKING AS A REF ON THE WEEKENDS. I ENJOY THE GAMES AND MOST OF THE TIME THE SIDELINES. MAYBE IF THE PARENTS WOULD PICK UP A SOCCER RULE BOOK THEY MIGHT NOT BE SO BAD. THE COACHES ARE NOT ANY BETTER!!!! THEY YELL AND SCREAM AND JUMP UP AND DOWN AND TRY TO INFLUENCE US TO MAKE A CALL GO THEIR WAY . SOME OF US ARE OUT THERE TO LEARN AND BECOME BETTER REFS. YES, I HAVE SEEN SOME BAD CALLS AND I PROBABLY HAVE MADE A FEW TOO BUT SETTLE DOWN WE ALL LEARN IN LIFE AND WILL MAKE MISTAKES. IF IT WAS NOT FOR US IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR GAMES YOU PROBABLY WOULD NOT EVEN BE PLAYING. TAKE A CHILL PILL AND JUST PLAY THE GAME.
:2cents: :2cents: :2cents: :2cents: :2cents:

:thanks
Good thoughts, good words...but don't SHOUT at us! :( It hurts the eyes to read all caps! ;)

I personally don't mind young (16+) refs, as long as they 1) are confident enough that the CAN take control of the game when need be and 2) pay attention to the play and not to the beautiful/handsome midfielders' buns, etc. I've caught more young refs gawking than I care to think about.

Plus, don't give me a young sideline ref who's been up 'til midnight hangin' with his/her friends and who has no energy or interest in keeping up with play.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by SoccerFan@Jul 22 2005, 01:40 PM


:thanks
Good thoughts, good words...but don't SHOUT at us! :( It hurts the eyes to read all caps! ;)

I personally don't mind young (16+) refs, as long as they 1) are confident enough that the CAN take control of the game when need be and 2) pay attention to the play and not to the beautiful/handsome midfielders' buns, etc. I've caught more young refs gawking than I care to think about.

Plus, don't give me a young sideline ref who's been up 'til midnight hangin' with his/her friends and who has no energy or interest in keeping up with play. [/quote]
Exactly, don't shout at us and we won't shout at you!

Here is a point my fellow referees often overlook. As an AR, I actually count how many "calls" the coach makes in the first 5 minutes of the game. If he has made, say, three "calls" I will quietly tell him next time I am at mid-field, that he needs to leave the officiating to us and we will leave the coaching to him. Most coaches will try and modify their behavior, but let's say he doesn't. At half time, I will tell the (center) referee that I talked to the coach about his "call making" and if the he sees me waving him over in the second half, it will be because we need to caution and/or eject the coach. Interestingly, the more seasoned referee often has no clue that there is a problem - guess we have learned to tune out the sidelines, whereas a young referee often is more bothered by the sideline behavior.

Too often, we have young ARs who are thinking: "Man - I am glad I am not in the center having to take the abuse from this coach." To those young minds, I say: "The three of you are a team. Any abuse directed at the (center) referee should be acted upon as if the abuse was directed at YOU." Call over the (center) referee and inform him of the sideline behavior and let him deal with it.

Final point: There is absolutely zero tolerance for verbal abuse of teenage referees.

Originally posted by italiaforever@Jul 21 2005, 07:47 PM
IT IS PARENTS THAT DO NOT KNOW A DAMN THING ABOUT SOCCER THAT MAKES US YOUNG REFS WANT TO QUIT. YOU WANT EVERY FOUL CALLED ON YOUR BABY AND IT DONT WORK THAT WAY!!!! I AM A YOUNG REF AND I WAS AT PEGASUS AND SOMETIMES I WANTED TO LAUGH AT SOME OF THESE PARENTS!!! I WORK VERY HARD AT WHAT I DO....AND I ENJOY WORKING AS A REF ON THE WEEKENDS. I ENJOY THE GAMES AND MOST OF THE TIME THE SIDELINES. MAYBE IF THE PARENTS WOULD PICK UP A SOCCER RULE BOOK THEY MIGHT NOT BE SO BAD. THE COACHES ARE NOT ANY BETTER!!!! THEY YELL AND SCREAM AND JUMP UP AND DOWN AND TRY TO INFLUENCE US TO MAKE A CALL GO THEIR WAY . SOME OF US ARE OUT THERE TO LEARN AND BECOME BETTER REFS. YES, I HAVE SEEN SOME BAD CALLS AND I PROBABLY HAVE MADE A FEW TOO BUT SETTLE DOWN WE ALL LEARN IN LIFE AND WILL MAKE MISTAKES. IF IT WAS NOT FOR US IN THE MIDDLE OF YOUR GAMES YOU PROBABLY WOULD NOT EVEN BE PLAYING. TAKE A CHILL PILL AND JUST PLAY THE GAME.
:2cents: :2cents: :2cents: :2cents: :2cents:

:thanks
Refs never refer to the LOTG as "the rule book." There are no rules in soccer, only Laws. Individual rules and regulations may be implemented by various leagues or clubs, but they are not Laws and do not govern the run of play. The ATR is advice on interpretation and application of the LOTG; they are not rules either.

If you are a ref, from now on you need to refer to "the rules" as the Laws of the Game. In addition to learning the Laws and their situational applications, you need to learn the appropriate vernacular. It is errors like this that hurt refs' credibility.

Good luck, stay at it, and study up. Watch the positioning and mechanics of college and pro level games and copy them. Make your calls clear and assertive, and communicate constantly with your ARs. If you look like you know what you're doing, you'll get harrassed a heckuva lot less.

Originally posted by DBU@Jul 25 2005, 09:23 AM
Here is a point my fellow referees often overlook. As an AR, I actually count how many "calls" the coach makes in the first 5 minutes of the game. If he has made, say, three "calls" I will quietly tell him next time I am at mid-field, that he needs to leave the officiating to us and we will leave the coaching to him. Most coaches will try and modify their behavior, but let's say he doesn't. At half time, I will tell the (center) referee that I talked to the coach about his "call making" and if the he sees me waving him over in the second half, it will be because we need to caution and/or eject the coach. Interestingly, the more seasoned referee often has no clue that there is a problem - guess we have learned to tune out the sidelines, whereas a young referee often is more bothered by the sideline behavior.

Too often, we have young ARs who are thinking: "Man - I am glad I am not in the center having to take the abuse from this coach." To those young minds, I say: "The three of you are a team. Any abuse directed at the (center) referee should be acted upon as if the abuse was directed at YOU." Call over the (center) referee and inform him of the sideline behavior and let him deal with it.

Final point: There is absolutely zero tolerance for verbal abuse of teenage referees.
I trust that while you're engaged in gauging the coach's behavior, that you also pay attention to the game you are lining. It sounds like you're spending way too much time at midfield if you can hear the coaches that much. Either that, or you're paying way too much attention to them to the disbenefit of the game you are supposed to be officiating.

Now, in most games unless a team is being dominated, an AR will spend much of his/her time traversing the field and staying with the last defender in order to call offside. That doesn't give you much time to listen to the coach, but apparently you are. You should be concentrating on snapping the flag. What you are doing is engaging in "extra duty," that really is just a game of "I've got you now, you SOB."

This is the kind of attitude that fosters ill will between teams and refs. If you look for trouble, you will find it. We've all had coaches that want to control games; that's expected and is normal, albeit not entirely appropriate. But what is not expected is refs who want to control coaches instead of reffing games. I'm seeing more and more of that lately, and this post is evidence of that.

Need to stop going into games with a chip on your shoulder. If you do, you're in the wrong profession.

Originally posted by Garman+Jul 26 2005, 08:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Garman @ Jul 26 2005, 08:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-DBU@Jul 25 2005, 09:23 AM
Here is a point my fellow referees often overlook. As an AR, I actually count how many "calls" the coach makes in the first 5 minutes of the game. If he has made, say, three "calls" I will quietly tell him next time I am at mid-field, that he needs to leave the officiating to us and we will leave the coaching to him. Most coaches will try and modify their behavior, but let's say he doesn't. At half time, I will tell the (center) referee that I talked to the coach about his "call making" and if the he sees me waving him over in the second half, it will be because we need to caution and/or eject the coach. Interestingly, the more seasoned referee often has no clue that there is a problem - guess we have learned to tune out the sidelines, whereas a young referee often is more bothered by the sideline behavior.

Too often, we have young ARs who are thinking: "Man - I am glad I am not in the center having to take the abuse from this coach." To those young minds, I say: "The three of you are a team. Any abuse directed at the (center) referee should be acted upon as if the abuse was directed at YOU." Call over the (center) referee and inform him of the sideline behavior and let him deal with it.

Final point: There is absolutely zero tolerance for verbal abuse of teenage referees.
I trust that while you're engaged in gauging the coach's behavior, that you also pay attention to the game you are lining. It sounds like you're spending way too much time at midfield if you can hear the coaches that much. Either that, or you're paying way too much attention to them to the disbenefit of the game you are supposed to be officiating.

Now, in most games unless a team is being dominated, an AR will spend much of his/her time traversing the field and staying with the last defender in order to call offside. That doesn't give you much time to listen to the coach, but apparently you are. You should be concentrating on snapping the flag. What you are doing is engaging in "extra duty," that really is just a game of "I've got you now, you SOB."

This is the kind of attitude that fosters ill will between teams and refs. If you look for trouble, you will find it. We've all had coaches that want to control games; that's expected and is normal, albeit not entirely appropriate. But what is not expected is refs who want to control coaches instead of reffing games. I'm seeing more and more of that lately, and this post is evidence of that.

Need to stop going into games with a chip on your shoulder. If you do, you're in the wrong profession. [/b][/quote]
Actually, there's plenty of time to listen to coaches. Indeed, it's difficult to avoid. If the ball is on the other half of the field, for a corner kick for instance, the AR is up at the halfway line, normally right next to or directly in front of the coach.

While I think the original poster's scheme of counting the coach's calls is extreme, most games the AR hears the coach non-stop.

As an AR, if I feel a coach is a problem and/or is inciting poor behavior from the parents by his example, I'll have a word with the center referee and leave it to him to deal with it. I really hate seeing an over-authoritative AR.

This is a big problem, sure coaches should shut up, sure, the sideline should just sit and enjoy the game. But have you been to any baseball, football, basketball game when the crowd did not get involved with the game? It’s sport, we all get worked up. I know I do. What we as referees have to do is understand that and get over ourselves. We have to tune out the loud and obnoxious coach and sideline and do what we are their for, Referee the game, do the best job we can, learn, and become a better decision maker and above all STAY IN THE GAME . We will never be perfect but we can try.
Many that I have worked with get way to involved with the sideline. If they are not threatening you or verbally abusing you worry about the game. That doesn’t mean a complaint about a bad call should warrant a discussion with the coach or sideline.
Don’t be so thin skinned.
Cause if you are you in the wrong line of work.
Play on !!!!

Freeway,

The problem is not so much a coach who complains about calls. If that was the only issue, I agree with letting it go to focus on the game.

What happens when you allow a coach go off at every call is that it starts to infect the other participants. Spectators believe the coach knows what he's talking about and start 'helping' him complain, just in case you aren't paying attention. Players also start acting differently too because their anxiety increases with the coaches. Basically, this behaviour chips away at your authority as the judge of what's fair or just and is exactly why dissent is a cautionable offense. Dissent can take on many forms that could be rated lower than referee abusive or physical threats.

So while a 'zero tolerance' policy against complaints is only going to result in a bad experience for everyone involved, I wouldn't endorse the 'allow everything that isn't abusive or threatening method' either.

Originally posted by freewaysoccer@Jul 29 2005, 08:41 AM
This is a big problem, sure coaches should shut up, sure, the sideline should just sit and enjoy the game. But have you been to any baseball, football, basketball game when the crowd did not get involved with the game? It’s sport, we all get worked up. I know I do. What we as referees have to do is understand that and get over ourselves. We have to tune out the loud and obnoxious coach and sideline and do what we are their for, Referee the game, do the best job we can, learn, and become a better decision maker and above all STAY IN THE GAME . We will never be perfect but we can try.
Many that I have worked with get way to involved with the sideline. If they are not threatening you or verbally abusing you worry about the game. That doesn’t mean a complaint about a bad call should warrant a discussion with the coach or sideline.
Don’t be so thin skinned.
Cause if you are you in the wrong line of work.
Play on !!!!
Read the very first post; it specifically deals with influencing the younger less experienced refs. Intimidation:Right or wrong? We don't have enough refs. Many quit because of the rude behavior displayed by so many. Can we clean the sidelines up? Heck yes. The benefit is staring everyone right on the tips of our noses, but most of us can't see it... B) B) B) Blind, fat, old refs are not the answer.

HEY..YES THE REFZ SUCKED!!! ESPECIALLY IN THE SURF CUP!!! YES THEY DID!!!! COME ON..MOST OF THE REFZ WERE REFFING KIDZ OLDER THAN THEM!!! ..SO IT SEEMED SO. OR...THEY WERE TOO OLD TO EVEN RUN UP AND DOWN THE FIELDS!!!!! AND SOMETIMES THEY REALLY NEED TO PAY ATTENTION BECAUSE THEY MAKE REALLY BAD CALLS LIKE WTF!!!!

(GET NEW REFS)

I disagree.
We are on the field to referee a game, by the Laws of the game. Not change the laws to fit our program. Or what we feel is morally correct. A loud coach is a pain in the #$$ but that's all he is. We should learn to ignore him. If his influence affects the players on the field in a negative fashion then we should call the game accordingly. By the LOTG
If that is decent, or unsportsman like conduct yellow_card

Freeway, are you a ref? You don't know what you're talking about. First off, it's "dissent", not "decent". Secondly, referees don't show cards to coaches; cards are only for players, substitutes, and substituted players. Finally, a coach who is over the top should be dealt with, not ignored. A problem coach who is ignored is not only a negative influence on his players, he is inciteful to his spectators. Furthermore, an obnoxious coach who is left ignored becomes a bigger problem for the next referee.

Read the rules of any youth soccer league. There are specific statements about what is acceptable behavior from the coach. "Loud pain in the a$$" isn't in there.

Sorry, simple miss-spelling... And yes I am a referee, have been for almost 15 years.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I’m a firm believer that our job is to enforce the LOTG. And frankly that is most of the problem. If we as Referees worried more about what happens on the field and less about what happens off, we would find that are games would go much more smoothly.
Get over the load coach, get over the load parents. If it affects play so be it!
CALL THE GAME ON THE FIELD!

Originally posted by freewaysoccer@Aug 3 2005, 07:42 AM
Sorry, simple miss-spelling... And yes I am a referee, have been for almost 15 years.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I’m a firm believer that our job is to enforce the LOTG. And frankly that is most of the problem. If we as Referees worried more about what happens on the field and less about what happens off, we would find that are games would go much more smoothly.
Get over the load coach, get over the load parents. If it affects play so be it!
CALL THE GAME ON THE FIELD!
Dealing with over the top coaches IS part of enforcing the LOTG. Specifically, Law 5.

I let a coach get off steam, and then, if he (or she) is being an annoyance to the game, I tell him to quit. I may tell them a 2nd time. Third time they are gone. I stress that I believe it is important to have thick skin, and let them rave if they have to in getting it out of their system, then they have to quit. It brings disrespect to themselves, embarasses their team, and most important, brings the game into the gutter. BUT, I have seen refs and worse, AR's getting into peoples conversations on the sidelines! That is totally idiotic! The fans have a right to talk. If they are abusing the players or AR, that is different, but just talking among themselves, no matter how negative, is their right! I have seen a couple of refs (actually AR's) make fools of themselves on the sidelines because they object to what they overhear. One guy even strained to listen and missed a call. There is more problems than fat & young refs. If people are upset about the reffing, then GET OUT THERE or get someone else. Recruit. Do something other than complain. I did.

My expeience has been that the higher educated soccer sideline knows and likes to see a good game..the problem is on the lower end, a less educated soccer group that knows nothing of the game, it's tactics, Laws or history......they :angry: :angry: :angry: yellow_card yell at soccer refs cause they have seen it done in baseball and basketball